Cavern Diving Definitions by Agency?

[ucfdiver]

I dive to my comfort level, not my training agencies comfort level with me (NACD). It's my safety on the line, not someone at the NACD headquarters. One would hope I would be the person to make the most reasonable safety rules. I turn the dive when the cavern zone ends (judged by light), and typically have well over 1/3 of my air left. Now at Ginnie's ballroom, I turn the dive with less than 1/3 (typically 1000), since I know for a fact I can easily exit that system with 1000psi while sharing my air.

 

[farsidefan1]

An ineresting thread. On my first ocean dive (3rd dive after certifying) I was with a group of 6 divers and a divemaster in Belize. The divemaster entered a, hmm, cavern? at 60ft. It was dark and so I dug out my little light (I was prepared for night dive I knew was coming later that week), waited till everyone else had gone in and then followed - with a hell of a lot of reservations! When we popped out I noticed the colors were more green and blue so I checked the depth, yup 93 ft. Crap, I had broken 2 rules on my first ocean dive. My dilema was that when they entered the opening I had no idea where they would come out. I was new to the group and didn't want to stop my buddy from doing it (peer group pressure). I didn't want to be alone in the big old ocean so I followed. I have wondered about this several times. I felt I had to follow the dive master and he had entered before I could signal him. I was kind of shocked. I let everyone else go first because I didn't want to kick up sediment due to my lack of experience. I suppose alls well that ends well but in retrospect perhaps I should have made my concerns clear to my dive buddy (who I had never met before trip).

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I suppose alls well that ends well but in retrospect perhaps I should have made my concerns clear to my dive buddy (who I had never met before trip).

The only way to make your concerns clear is to give the appropriate signals after participating in a proper briefing. In your situation, with dissapearing guide, the only options I see are follow the guide or abort and discuss concerns at the surface.

Sounds like a memorable dive 5. :14:

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The tone of some of the responses has been very reflective, like a mirror of the solo diver in me. The sdim has been beyond all of the yardsticks in the op, and there are spots I consider caverns that Nemrod's definition would call a cave. That's all a fine topic for another thread.

What I'm really looking for is Where each agency draws the line(?). When does a cavern dive become a cave dive(?) does not necessarily have the same answer as What are the cavern diving limits in standard recreational gear(?).

Seems likely these numbers would be in the Cavern Diving Manual of the various agencies. Is it 200' penetration down to 70' (maybe 100'), or 200' linear from surface down to 70' (maybe 100'). I only have a late '90's CDS Cavern Manual (cert in '00). Still hoping to compare manuals; maybe the other agencies don't have such limits and you guys have been answering me.

 

[peterbj7]

The issue farsidefan1 raises is more related to a non-existent or inadequate dive briefing that should have been given by the guide, which is a general issue in itself. What do people think about that?

 

[ucfdiver]

The tone of some of the responses has been very reflective, like a mirror of the solo diver in me. The sdim has been beyond all of the yardsticks in the op, and there are spots I consider caverns that Nemrod's definition would call a cave. That's all a fine topic for another thread.

What I'm really looking for is Where each agency draws the line(?). When does a cavern dive become a cave dive(?) does not necessarily have the same answer as What are the cavern diving limits in standard recreational gear(?).

Seems likely these numbers would be in the Cavern Diving Manual of the various agencies. Is it 200' penetration down to 70' (maybe 100'), or 200' linear from surface down to 70' (maybe 100'). I only have a late '90's CDS Cavern Manual (cert in '00). Still hoping to compare manuals; maybe the other agencies don't have such limits and you guys have been answering me.

Here's the NACD limits as published in the manual.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/227876-cave-certs-explained.html

I wrote this, and was later told that there's a few things that have changed by a manager of a LDS, but I don't remember what exactly has changed. Bottom line, avoid going PAST the cert limits, but never be afraid to call a dive short of them.

 

[vintagediver]

I am confused...

A few years ago, before cave diving became so popular.
The National Speleological Society's definition of (dry)cave and cavern were exactly the opposite of what I read lately in the (wet) definitions.Cave was the entrance and cavern was the place with all the pretty formations.

Why is that? What has changed? Is this a perpetuated typo?

 

[ucfdiver]

I am confused...

A few years ago, before cave diving became so popular.
The National Speleological Society's definition of (dry)cave and cavern were exactly the opposite of what I read lately in the (wet) definitions.Cave was the entrance and cavern was the place with all the pretty formations.

Why is that? What has changed? Is this a perpetuated typo?

Looking at dictionaries, it's very confusing.
cavern. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

I can assure you that when I received my cavern cert in 1999 the NACD defined it as where the light zone reaches.

 

[vintagediver]

I am refering to long, long, long, ago...

1973ish..

National Speleological Society definition.

 

[Dive-aholic]

How am I supposed to know when I am 200 feet in?

Most caves have marked gold line. In JB, the gold line starts at 110' and is at about 40' depth. That means you're 150' linear feet from the surface. You can actually make it back to 210' on the gold line and still be in the daylight zone. The limitations are for training, anyway. As an instructor, I can't take students beyond the linear penetration limits. As a diver doing a cavern dive, I can dive my personal comfort level. Standards are for training.

What I'm really looking for is Where each agency draws the line(?). When does a cavern dive become a cave dive(?) does not necessarily have the same answer as What are the cavern diving limits in standard recreational gear(?).

Seems likely these numbers would be in the Cavern Diving Manual of the various agencies. Is it 200' penetration down to 70' (maybe 100'), or 200' linear from surface down to 70' (maybe 100').

As far as a measured penetration, it is linear feet. For the agencies that prescribe 200', it is 200 linear feet from the surface. Descend 60' and penetrate no more than 140'. That is 200 linear feet. Descend only 30' and you may penetrate 170'. This all depends on where the light zone ends. In Vortex, for example, you will never reach the distance limitation of any of the cave agencies. You reach the end of the cavern zone at about 100 linear feet, then you are in cave.