cavern/cave diving on Oahu

[murfef]

Ok, your post had that about the recreational gear, not mine. Check this link out and look at Cavern. My certification is 200 linear feet, not 130 and within Daylight, not direct sunlight. All agencies are not the same. Like I said though, I'm really not trying to argue but you continue to tell me I'm wrong so here it is for you, these are the standards I was trained to. Apparently some agencies train you to do deeper dives with more penetration at the Cavern level. And these two things seem to be all we disagree on yet you want to continue to push the issue.

NAUI Worldwide Technical Courses

Cavern Diver

Cavern Diver is a no-decompression course designed to teach you the fundamental skills and knowledge for cavern diving above 100 fsw / 30 msw and at a combined depth and distance penetration less than 200 feet / 60 meters from the surface.

During your course, you will complete a minimum of three cavern dives in at least two different sites within daylight and no-decompression limits, and become proficient in the use of spools and reels, team and line placement, and zero visibility/touch contact communications while following a line, as well as many other skills necessary to be a competent Cavern Diver.

Dive planning (including EANx if used) penetration distance within cavern diver limits, safety drills, equipment checks, gas sharing, guideline deployment and removal techniques, propulsion techniques, lost teammate and guideline drills and emergency procedures will also be covered in your Cavern Diver course.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I fail to see NAUI's definition of "daylight" anywhere in your quote or on the linked page.

I am trying to politely lead you to the realization that if you come up with NAUI's definition of daylight with regards to their Cavern cert, it is highly likely it is not the same as what you have typed in this thread.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Here is one site with some of the relevant historical data;

http://www.swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/CaveDivingFatalities_bis2007.pdf

Most of the deaths (n=287) within America occurred in Florida (87%), 6 (2%) died in Texas, 6 (2%) in Missouri, 4 (1%) in Georgia, 4 (1%) in Hawaii, and the remaining 22 divers (7%) were distributed across 16 other states...

...Of the 275 divers whose occupation was known, the two most common were
student (n = 89, 32%) and U.S. Military (n = 34, 12%).

 

[murfef]

Is it highly likely or is it a definate, sounds like you're not so sure yourself.
you were also politelly trying to lead me to the realization that it was a max of 70ft and 130ft which as you see now is not the case for NAUI or NACD(link at the bottom). You keep quoting Direct sunlight, NAUI and NACD say natural sunlight. I was taught natural sunlight. I don't have to have a direct line of sight to the entry/exit to have natural sunlight. You have yet to show me anything that says otherwise other than a quote that you put in your post. To be honest, I'm sure I could put the effort in and find it for you but it's honestly not worth the effort. I know what I was taught and you know what you were taught. Just for giggles though, I got out my book and it only says daylight zone/natural sunlight, therefore a night dive would automatically make it a cave dive. The only other thing it says in the book is:
"Cavern-always has natural light flooding into the passage space." Nothing about direct visual on entry exit or direct sunlight.
"cave-has no natural light that can be seen."
So if a cavern is the above definition, and cave is the above definition, what is the part of the cave/cavern called that has ambient light? Is it a cave or a cavern. I guess it's up to interpretation between agencies and individuals. Seems to me like it has natural sunlight so it's a cavern.
NACD also says 200ft-http://www.scubadogdiving.com/NACD%20Cavern%20Course.htm and states natural sunlight and max depth of 100ft.

 

[murfef]

Those stats make sense to me since the majority of the cave diving happens in fl, it would only make sence that FL would have the most deaths. As far as military, well, the military has a reputation of acting/feeling bullet proof and they tend to do a lot of dumb things. So that doesn't surprise me either.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have been involved in most of the threads here on SB that have been on this topic, for the last 4 years, and you are the first I can recall saying "cavern diving" is by definition "not necessarily within sight of a non-restricted entrance/exit.

In addition to visible entrance/exit, restriction on depth & penetration, NAUI also has the important restriction that two divers must be able to swim comfortable abreast.

Above is a quote from one of those threads. ReefHugger has considerably more diving experience than you, so unless you can find a NAUI definition for "daylight zone" I continue to think you &/or your instructor choose to define it differently that the vast majority of training agencies.

Just to clarify; I was not "politelly trying to lead you to the realization that it was a max of 70ft and 130ft."

What is "your" definition of cavern equipped?

That compared to the 200ft from the surface that is allowed by "cavern" definition

I contend that 200' from the surface is "when properly cavern equipped" and for a typical recreational OW rig, typical recreational standards apply (ie. no farther than 130' from surface. Are you using bungied alternate / long hose primary? (my Cavern cert was with "single tank / bungied 7' alternate" and at that time NSS-CDS defined my limit as 130' from surface)

yes I'm cavern equiped and all I meant by my training restrictions was that being able to see the 'actual exit' isn't one of them. I could be around a corner and as long as I can see light then I'm still in the cavern zone(the daylight zone).

 

[murfef]

I'm sorry we seem to be at an impass on this topic. I did however discuss it with some other people that are very experienced Cave divers on an actual Cave diving forum and they also (at least the ones that have responded to my question) seem to believe that the cavern zone is as long as you can see light from the entry/exit, not necessarily the actual entry/exit. So far as I can tell, I have not violated any of my limitations. They also seem to think that you would be hard pressed to find anywhere actually define it any better than what I've posted. The only other thing I could post to show you is from a "cave diving terms" page and it reads

Cavern Dive: Visibility greater than 40 feet, Maximum penetration of 130 feet, Maximum depth of 70 feet, and always within the ambient sunlight area.

The CDS now allows a penetration of 200 linear feet.
I also got this info

the NACD Cavern and Cave Diver Workbook states that you just have to be able to see the light (Cavern Dive Limitations section).

Apparently we are among two completely different circles of divers.

 

[gkndivebum]

I fail to see NAUI's definition of "daylight" anywhere in your quote or on the linked page.

From the NAUI S&P manual, page 2.5:

Cave diving- A penetration into a naturally occurring rock environment with a restricted vertical ascent beyond the cavern zone.

Cavern diving- Diving in the area in an underwater cave that is illuminated in part by natural sunlight and from which an emergency swimming ascent is possible.

For the NAUI Cavern Diver certification, from the same manual, page 2.152:

This course is to provide the diver with the skills and knowledge needed to gain experience and minimize risks in cavern diving at depths no greater than 100 fsw (30 msw) and at a combined depth and distance penetration no greater than 200 feet (60 meters) from the surface and must remain within the daylight zone and no-decompression limits.

 

[murfef]

Yeah, the difference in oppinion lies in what we consider the "daylight zone". I contend that you only have to be able to see ambient light and Halemano feels that you have to be able to see the acutal entry/exit. NACD and NAUI state the following, not sure about other agencies.

Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook NACD first edition 2005/2006 and it defines limitation for daylight zone as following:

The Cavern Diver must always stay within the daylight zone of the cave system. While it is not necessary to have view of the physical opening to the cavern, clear view of ambient light radiating through that opening must be plainly visible. ........

I just wish I could find it online somewhere so I could show him the link.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

From the NAUI S&P manual, page 2.5:

Cave diving- A penetration into a naturally occurring rock environment with a restricted vertical ascent beyond the cavern zone.

Cavern diving- Diving in the area in an underwater cave that is illuminated in part by natural sunlight and from which an emergency swimming ascent is possible.

For the NAUI Cavern Diver certification, from the same manual, page 2.152:

This course is to provide the diver with the skills and knowledge needed to gain experience and minimize risks in cavern diving at depths no greater than 100 fsw (30 msw) and at a combined depth and distance penetration no greater than 200 feet (60 meters) from the surface and must remain within the daylight zone and no-decompression limits.

All I can say is that NAUI seems to be saying that their Cavern certified divers are all capable of performing ESA from 200' linear and out of sight of the exit.

It would still be nice to see a NAUI definition of "daylight zone."