Cave Diver wanna be...need some help

[karstdvr]

If you are a cave diver, do I even need to explain?:05:

If not, well, when i started diving 3 years ago, i always knew I'd be doing this. When i saw pictures of cave diving i was sold. I can't imagine any place on earth more beautiful then what i will see cave diving (to me anyway). I will be expierencing something that not even 1% of the population gets to see! I like challange as well, however this is a small part of the reason. To me, the most rewarding things in life are never easy to achieve, and I'm sure this will be no different.

So do i pass? Is that good enough? Whats your reason?

Just curious. I see a lot of people wanting cave training,and was curious what drives the sudden popularity.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Just curious. I see a lot of people wanting cave training,and was curious what drives the sudden popularity.

Availability, I think. That and it's getting to be big business. The idea of not promoting it seems to have gone out the window. Before long there will be free "discover cave" experience programs.

 

[octgal]

Availability, I think. That and it's getting to be big business. The idea of not promoting it seems to have gone out the window. Before long there will be free "discover cave" experience programs.

Mike you sound like promoting cave diving courses is a bad thing!???

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike you sound like promoting cave diving courses is a bad thing!???

I don't know whether it's good or bad but it's definately a change in thinking.
From the NACD web site...

The goal of the NACD is not to encourage people to cave or cavern dive. The responsibility of the organization is to aid interested divers in becoming safe cavern or cave divers and to discourage those who may not meet minimum standards. The NACD philosophy of safe cave diving is based on a system of checks and balances to insure that NACD standards are maintained in each course.

Which is a decidedly different approach than, for instance, that of PADI who actively promotes diving and would love to empty all the bowling alleys and golf courses and get all those folks out diving.

I think there are a number of aspects to this. One is the desire of some to make a living in cave diving. It's hard to do that without plenty of cave divers. The NACD, NSS-CDS and GUE may be not for profit organizations but their instructor members own and oporate businesses for the purpose of making a profit. You can't make much teaching without students. Other agencies that teach cave divers are also looking for profit. However there are all kinds of political "issues" regarding cave access and conservation too. Few non-cave divers would care about access for cave divers so numbers can be of help there in that organizations like the NACD and NSS are our collective voice and without a healthy membership it isn't much of a voice. Politicians are concerned about votes. The other edge to that sward is that increased traffic in the caves adds to the conservation issues and an increase in accidents can also get the public looking at us with squinty eyes.

So what's good? I don't know. I want access to caves, I want to be able to buy gas near the caves AND I want the caves in good shape AND to not be crowded when I dive there.

I'd also have to say that I've seen some adverse effects of the increase in the number of cave divers just in the time I've been cave diving. This may not be the place to go into detail.

 

[scubafool]

That was a very thought provoking post.

You are much more into cave diving than I am, but it seems that you are still asking the same questions that I am.

 

[karstdvr]

I don't know whether it's good or bad but it's definately a change in thinking.
From the NACD web site...


Which is a decidedly different approach than, for instance, that of PADI who actively promotes diving and would love to empty all the bowling alleys and golf courses and get all those folks out diving.

I think there are a number of aspects to this. One is the desire of some to make a living in cave diving. It's hard to do that without plenty of cave divers. The NACD, NSS-CDS and GUE may be not for profit organizations but their instructor members own and oporate businesses for the purpose of making a profit. You can't make much teaching without students. Other agencies that teach cave divers are also looking for profit. However there are all kinds of political "issues" regarding cave access and conservation too. Few non-cave divers would care about access for cave divers so numbers can be of help there in that organizations like the NACD and NSS are our collective voice and without a healthy membership it isn't much of a voice. Politicians are concerned about votes. The other edge to that sward is that increased traffic in the caves adds to the conservation issues and an increase in accidents can also get the public looking at us with squinty eyes.

So what's good? I don't know. I want access to caves, I want to be able to buy gas near the caves AND I want the caves in good shape AND to not be crowded when I dive there.

I'd also have to say that I've seen some adverse effects of the increase in the number of cave divers just in the time I've been cave diving. This may not be the place to go into detail.

MIke
You make some excellent points. I was certified over 10 years ago and have seen a lot of changes. The missions of the CDS and the NACD are safety and conservation,this was borne out of the early 70s when fatalities were about to outlaw the sport-if you read early documents you'll see meetings with law enforcement and the development of training guide lines. When I first entered cave diving,you'd buy oxygen in somebody's backyard and go to a compressor somewhere to make your nitrox;and when you'd show up at a dive site you might see a couple other cave divers. Typically the only people who got cave certified at that time where people who lived close to the caves or wreck divers who wanted to learn our penetration techniques. Now it has become big business with some instuctors and shops completely dependent on the revenue generated from the springs;plus the formation of for profit cave training agencies like GUE and IANTD. But the biggest boom to cave diving is the internet,it has become recreationalized and popularized from the net. A common paradigm is that discussions are carried on about cave diving,and those in the recreational world see it,and want to give it a try. I see nothing wrong with that,and don't condemn it;I just don't condone it because it is a dangerous activity not for everybody-I've had friends die,so I never encourage anybody to participate in the sport. Another valid point you make is that with more people entering cave diving and joining the nonprofit agencies,it gives a greater voice to the constant battle to keep current sites opened and hopefully open new sites. The other problem you discuss is the conservation issue. With more cave divers brings more wear and tear on the caves,and this has a lot of people VERY concerned. The projects I am involved with in cave diving make this a subject with the state that they are investigating and the end result could be limitations,especially if we don't police ourselves. My biggest fear for the future with the sudden popularity of cave diving and companies searching for places to make a profit,is the creation of PADI cave. I am not anti-PADI (so please don't read that),but you get a greater influx of people into the already fragile caves.
The last area we are seeing with a growing popularity of cave diving is the trend toward trained cave diving accidents versus untrained people having an accident in the caves. One could say that with more availability of training people are getting trained more readily versus sneaking into a cave to take a peek. The concern is that these fatalities are occuring from cave divers exceeding their experience level. Quite a few years ago a big dive was from Peacock1 to Olsen,and when I entered cave diving you didn't make the Grand Traverse or well casing until you had 100+ cave dives. This has changed a lot with many cave divers being goal driven and desiring to see certain things,especially if it has been popularized on the internet. The concern is that you are seeing cave divers doing bigger dives without getting the experience needed for that type of dive ie going form A to D,but skipping B and C. If we have a lot of accidents among trained cave divers,especially when we claim to the public that training reduces the chances of an accident,then we seem hypocritical.
Good diving

 

[jeandiver]

Karstdvr:
I love your point about divers doing Too Much , Too Fast.

I am between Intro and Apprentice myself , and there is SO MUCH main-line for me to see and experience.

My motto is:
Take it SLOW...There is SO MUCH cave to see , even the front 50 feet of it that no-one seems to look at anymore.

Jeano Beano

 

[karstdvr]

Karstdvr:
I love your point about divers doing Too Much , Too Fast.

I am between Intro and Apprentice myself , and there is SO MUCH main-line for me to see and experience.

My motto is:
Take it SLOW...There is SO MUCH cave to see , even the front 50 feet of it that no-one seems to look at anymore.

Jeano Beano

You know a natural tendency is to see how far you can go on a set of tanks. I went through that phase,and fortunatley lived through it. You are absolutely right,there is so much to see if we do a microexamination. For example one of the best dives in Ginnie (Devils) is before the lips,in the catacombs,but frequently gets overlooked since it isn't 3000' back. When I was having to do radio locates at Peacock and had to "babysit" the transmitter for 15 minutes by staying in one location,it forced me to look at things in detail,and it amazed me all there is to see in such a little area. One of my favorite dives is the time that I took 60 minutes to go from P1 to Pothole-there is more there than meets the eye,but that is a secret for your own discovery :05:
Good luck on your diving
Kelly

 

[MikeFerrara]

Karstdvr:
I love your point about divers doing Too Much , Too Fast.

I am between Intro and Apprentice myself , and there is SO MUCH main-line for me to see and experience.

My motto is:
Take it SLOW...There is SO MUCH cave to see , even the front 50 feet of it that no-one seems to look at anymore.

Jeano Beano

No kidding. Some of my greatest dives were cavern dives I did with my son after the "real dive"

There are a huge number of divers who just go out and eat up line. Do they see or enjoy anything?

There are so many spots that I like to go and just stop and hang out.
It's one thing if it's a working dive with an objective but most of my cave dives are just sight seeing dives. When I get to a place I like why rush past it to get someplace else? I see so many divers that look like they're late for a meeting or something. They come back..."went to 3000ft". Good they saw an arrow with a number written on it. You can look at arrows in the truck without having to haul all that heavy gear to the water. LOL

 

[karstdvr]

No kidding. Some of my greatest dives were cavern dives I did with my son after the "real dive"

There are a huge number of divers who just go out and eat up line. Do they see or enjoy anything?

There are so many spots that I like to go and just stop and hang out.
It's one thing if it's a working dive with an objective but most of my cave dives are just sight seeing dives. When I get to a place I like why rush past it to get someplace else? I see so many divers that look like they're late for a meeting or something. They come back..."went to 3000ft". Good they saw an arrow with a number written on it. You can look at arrows in the truck without having to haul all that heavy gear to the water. LOL

The thing that kills me is the number of people who'll go to Devil's and fight the current to go as far as they can,and you know with that type of dive you don't see much on the way in. Then once they've reached their "summit' will turn around and rush out due to impending deco.

I've done my big penetrations,3 hour+ bottom time yadda yadda yadda,but in retrospect the slow tourist type dives are funnest. I had a guy once who told me he knew Devil's well aka,you can't show me anything new. I took him on an hour long dive and we never made it past the cornflakes-it shocked him that he had never seen so much because he always blew past those areas.

I agree cavern dives are fun. I love to do cavern dives at JB,almost as much fun as the cave dive. Caverns are for more than just deco.