Cave Diver mishap Ginnie Springs 04SEP09

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Rick - I may be mistaken, but I believe the deceased was diving backmount. From what I understand, Harry's Crack is much better done in sidemount. A linetrap for a backmount diver might not be a linetrap for a sidemount diver.

Perhaps the deceased straight up used the wrong rig for the passage he was in...?





The line that was in Harry's Crack, it could have been simple survey line as well, which isn't usually laid with exitting as a priority. Thats hypothetical, of course, but lesser dove sites are like that.. even in commonly dived systems there's lesser dived areas.
 
Not to get off topic but I'm trying to understand what's happened here a little better (I'm not a cave diver in other words)...when I read cave dive reports it seems that people are going into the same cave over and over. Is this the case or is it more like going into different parts of the cave each time?

I guess I'm just trying to picture what an experienced caver's "experience" is.

A bit of both. You can go into a system for years and still see/find new stuff to go through.... or you can go down the mainline and get familiar. The nice thing about cave diving is that it will give you as much in return as you want or can handle. Sometimes a little more.
 
Rick - I may be mistaken, but I believe the deceased was diving backmount. From what I understand, Harry's Crack is much better done in sidemount. A linetrap for a backmount diver might not be a linetrap for a sidemount diver.
Looks like the line trap discussion is a :hijack: with reference to this mishap... he made it through Harry's Crack & took a wrong turn, ending up running out of gas on the Hill 400 line. Siltout is likely.
... The line that was in Harry's Crack, it could have been simple survey line as well, which isn't usually laid with exitting as a priority. Thats hypothetica...
I don't think so... never been in there myself, never plan to go in there, but the video (there was a really good one available on the net, but it's been pulled from the site where I saw it - I have a copy but it's over 100MB... I'll bring a CD to Vortoberfest if you like) and pictures I've seen look like typical side-tunnel (not gold line) line, with arrows, etc...
As for line traps for backmount not necessarily applying to side mount - true. As is the inverse, though not nearly as often.
 
Looks like the line trap discussion is a :hijack: with reference to this mishap... he made it through Harry's Crack & took a wrong turn, ending up running out of gas on the Hill 400 line. Siltout is likely.

One possible explanation for the 'wrong turn'.... its my understanding the deceased is a local, and thus one would expect, someone with intimate familiarity with Ginnie...

It's also my understanding the body was found 'towards' July springs.... So, given the options of removing oneself from a nasty restriction and being intimately familiar w/ the system, he COULD have seen a exit at July springs the best alternative. (which is a tad bit up the hill 400 line)...
 
Not to get off topic but I'm trying to understand what's happened here a little better (I'm not a cave diver in other words)...when I read cave dive reports it seems that people are going into the same cave over and over. Is this the case or is it more like going into different parts of the cave each time?

I guess I'm just trying to picture what an experienced caver's "experience" is.

Ginnie is a fairly large system, and once you get past the first ~300-400' or so, there are many, MANY branches and seperate conduits and criscrossing tunnels providing a multitude of different combinations and permutations....
 
One possible explanation for the 'wrong turn'.... its my understanding the deceased is a local, and thus one would expect, someone with intimate familiarity with Ginnie...
...which unfortunately, seems to give the false sense of security and people start doing visual jumps.

It's also my understanding the body was found 'towards' July springs.... So, given the options of removing oneself from a nasty restriction and being intimately familiar w/ the system, he COULD have seen a exit at July springs the best alternative. (which is a tad bit up the hill 400 line)...
The body was found just beyond the p900ft arrow up in a dome, and either way, I don't even think a no mount diver could get in july springs.

It just really confuses me why someone so experienced at Ginnie would be doing visual jumps around Harry's crack or wormhole. Those are the only two areas in the front half of the cave that I know of what can really get silted out.

PS Tim- I hate you for buying my roommates HP100's.......now I have to use stage bottles when I go single tank diving...grrr!
 
Looks like the line trap discussion is a :hijack: with reference to this mishap... he made it through Harry's Crack & took a wrong turn, ending up running out of gas on the Hill 400 line. Siltout is likely.
I don't think so... never been in there myself, never plan to go in there, but the video (there was a really good one available on the net, but it's been pulled from the site where I saw it - I have a copy but it's over 100MB... I'll bring a CD to Vortoberfest if you like) and pictures I've seen look like typical side-tunnel (not gold line) line, with arrows, etc...
As for line traps for backmount not necessarily applying to side mount - true. As is the inverse, though not nearly as often.


Ainslie's got a video online thats still active, the CDF thread has it linked. Arrows weren't prevelant from what I saw. I'm guessing knotted 24# line, which is pretty standard. Even survey line gets an arrow or two for safety sake anyway.

Your profile isn't concrete with a sidemount setup, you can always put a tank or two out in front of you or clip off behind to make your profile work. If you can make it through in backmount, you can do it in sidemount.
 
I agree, but barring catastophic gas failure, an emergency where a diver breaks trim or the virtually never going to happen with modern lights situation where all 6 to 9 lights on the team fail, or more likely some other sort of poorly skilled diver induced silt bomb, you won't silt it out if you have solid skills. There are some duck unders in the cross over tunnel and the bottom is very fine silt, but it is not exactly tight in there.

In other words, if a diver does not have the trim, buoyancy control or fin techniques to prevent blowing out the viz, that diver has no business being there in the first place. It goes back to personal responsibility - don't exceed the limits of your ability. Same with deciding to do a small, silty tunnel in Ginnie (and even more importantly in low flow caves) where you will blow out the front portion of the cave - do it in the middle of the night or some other time when there is maybe one other team who would be inconvenienced and then let them know about it in advance so they can anticipate it. Its both common courtesy as well as safe practice.

I also agree the Crossover tunnel is not an area where anyone should be doing visual jumps due to the silt and the potenial for student traffic in either Peanut or Olsen to silt things out. It is also one of the places where the tunnel is short enough that if you jump from the Peanut line to the Crossover, then put in the jump to the Olson line, you can then go back and pull the first jump and clean up the circuit on the same dive, so its even harder to justify a visual jump (that you shouldn't be doing in the first place).

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I that regard I do not support the idea of removing lines from some of the smaller siltier tunnels in that section of Ginnie. People will still go there and the need to run their own line will potentially result in more silt, aggravating the problem. I have not done Harry's Crack or the Wormhole, but I really enjoy the Parallel Tunnel. It would be just a bit harder to go through there totally clean if I was also running line, and the effect would potentially be magnified with team members following who may have to stop, start, and or change the pace as would be the case if putting in a line.

Then there is the comfort thing with some divers. As someone stated previously, they feel a lot more comfortable with the reel in their hands. This does not apply to, nor is it directed at the poster of that comment, but it is not neccesarily a good thing for some divers if having a reel in their hands leads them to feel they can contact the cave, and blow it out with less consequence. I'd argue that if they need the 'comfort' of their own reel in their hands, they are not ready to be there in the first place.


DA,
I agree with most of your statements. However, I was not the reason for the siltout, it was students from a full cave class that caused it. I have also witnessed instructors silting out this part of the cave to see how their students will handle it. I have been down this tunnel more than a few times to say the least, but I always run the spools in there. I learned about 3 years ago that it's not my skills in the cave that I don't trust, but it's those skills of people who are already in the cave ahead of me that I don't trust.

NOTE: That's one of the reasons it's nice to dive with Jeano Beano, cause in a siltout you can hear her singing loudly(at least I think that's called singing), helps to calm the nerves.:D
 
From threads in several places, here is what I believe to be a likely scenario (but may not even be close, so don't put a lot of stock in it):
The dive team entered Devil's Ear and headed up the main line to the Hill 400 jump point, which is pretty much the Harry's Crack jump point too, with Hill 400 to the left and Harry's Crack to the right.
The mishap diver made a visual jump and entered Harry's Crack (red line on the map). The buddy started to follow but decided against it when the passage silted out; the buddy went around to the other end of Harry's crack (whether he waited a while before doing this or not I can't guess), expecting to meet the mishap diver on the way. When the mishap diver didn't appear the buddy then went back around the circuit (green line on the map) to the entrance to Harry's Crack... at this point the buddy probably figured the mishap diver had either gotten stuck in the crack or (especially if there was silt in the main passage) had already come back out; either way it was time to exit the cave to either find his buddy waiting for him on the surface or to get help finding him.
In the meantime, the mishap diver turned around somewhere in Harry's crack and came back out, silting out the main tunnel in the process. Since he'd made a visual jump, he had no line to follow back to the main line, and in his search for it he missed it, finding instead the Hill 400 line on the other side of the main line from the Harry's Crack entrance. I'm speculating that he'd had a rough time getting out of Harry's Crack, had gotten stuck at least once, was excited in the extreme - that is, he had the dragon all the way up his back - and probably a little low on gas. Whatever the reason, he swam nearly 400' up the Hill 400 line and passed at least three arrows pointing in the other direction before running out of gas.

ginniemap.jpg


(Note: this map was originally posted in the Cave Diver's Forum by James Garrett)
Rick
 
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