Cave Diver mishap Ginnie Springs 04SEP09

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... I'd suggest removing the line all together as a possible alternative... the last thing we need is train wreck morbidity alluring people to some sick thrill...
I think you're right; there's some merit in "no line's better than a bad line." That would certainly tend to keep the casual line-follower out of some places where the existing line is poorly laid.
I think we need to take a harder look at line routing in general, though; there are some traps out there we know shouldn't be there, even in some of the most benign caves. If you're headed in and say to yourself "I've got to remember that at this spot I'll have to be on the right side of the line and go about four or five feet right of that to get through" then you're looking at a place where the line needs re-routing.
While there's no evidence so far - beyond a gut feeling - that line routing played a role in this mishap, it sure has got me thinking about it as a likely contributor, and rethinking that "gotta remember" solution to existing traps I know of.
Rick
 
The difference being, you'd put your own line in, and when it goes pear shaped..., that reel is in your hands... first time I met the cave monster, was in hindsight very benign, but to a new student, silting out the catacombs can be pretty eye opening... The one thing that made it low stress... The reel was in my hands and I KNEW the other end of that line went to a happy place....

EXACT same thing happened to me shortly after Basic cave. It was an eye-opener, that's for sure. But I agree, being reel man makes it a lot less stressful.
 
The difference being, you'd put your own line in, and when it goes pear shaped..., that reel is in your hands... first time I met the cave monster, was in hindsight very benign, but to a new student, silting out the catacombs can be pretty eye opening... The one thing that made it low stress... The reel was in my hands and I KNEW the other end of that line went to a happy place....

I agree, had that happen in the crossover tunnel at Peacock. Sure am glad I took the time to run the spools.
 
I agree, had that happen in the crossover tunnel at Peacock. Sure am glad I took the time to run the spools.

That would be a bad place for zero viz!!
 
I agree, had that happen in the crossover tunnel at Peacock. Sure am glad I took the time to run the spools.

That would be a bad place for zero viz!!
I agree, but barring catastophic gas failure, an emergency where a diver breaks trim or the virtually never going to happen with modern lights situation where all 6 to 9 lights on the team fail, or more likely some other sort of poorly skilled diver induced silt bomb, you won't silt it out if you have solid skills. There are some duck unders in the cross over tunnel and the bottom is very fine silt, but it is not exactly tight in there.

In other words, if a diver does not have the trim, buoyancy control or fin techniques to prevent blowing out the viz, that diver has no business being there in the first place. It goes back to personal responsibility - don't exceed the limits of your ability. Same with deciding to do a small, silty tunnel in Ginnie (and even more importantly in low flow caves) where you will blow out the front portion of the cave - do it in the middle of the night or some other time when there is maybe one other team who would be inconvenienced and then let them know about it in advance so they can anticipate it. Its both common courtesy as well as safe practice.

I also agree the Crossover tunnel is not an area where anyone should be doing visual jumps due to the silt and the potenial for student traffic in either Peanut or Olsen to silt things out. It is also one of the places where the tunnel is short enough that if you jump from the Peanut line to the Crossover, then put in the jump to the Olson line, you can then go back and pull the first jump and clean up the circuit on the same dive, so its even harder to justify a visual jump (that you shouldn't be doing in the first place).

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I that regard I do not support the idea of removing lines from some of the smaller siltier tunnels in that section of Ginnie. People will still go there and the need to run their own line will potentially result in more silt, aggravating the problem. I have not done Harry's Crack or the Wormhole, but I really enjoy the Parallel Tunnel. It would be just a bit harder to go through there totally clean if I was also running line, and the effect would potentially be magnified with team members following who may have to stop, start, and or change the pace as would be the case if putting in a line.

Then there is the comfort thing with some divers. As someone stated previously, they feel a lot more comfortable with the reel in their hands. This does not apply to, nor is it directed at the poster of that comment, but it is not neccesarily a good thing for some divers if having a reel in their hands leads them to feel they can contact the cave, and blow it out with less consequence. I'd argue that if they need the 'comfort' of their own reel in their hands, they are not ready to be there in the first place.
 
Good points DA.. Dont forget the weather can also cause a system to get bad viz in a area that normally could not get silted out. Or worse a 500lb rock falling somewhere in the system. I remember pulling my jump reel in Peacock at the crossover tunnell jump and there were massive fin marks in the cave floor beside the peanut line. I was happy that I was not there when it happened.
 
is there space in the crack to turn around?
 
is there space in the crack to turn around?

Coming from the mainline, not until you get closer to the express way. In reverse, it gets tight once you commit from the express way. Low/no flow, fine clay silt and you get the picture.....
 
... if a diver does not have the trim, buoyancy control or fin techniques to prevent blowing out the viz, that diver has no business being there in the first place...
Be that as it may, silt happens. I have a very simple rule: "If I can't get back out blindfolded, I have no business going in." Arguing the relative chances of ending up zero vis in a particular place is a nice academic exercise, but a basic tenet of safe caving is the blind exit, 'cause sooner or later someone's going to have to be able to do it, even if from something as improbable as a smashed mask and cut eyeball.
With that in mind, is it better to have a permanent line through a passage with half a dozen line traps in it or no line at all, so that any traps you lay are your own?
I'm leaning toward the latter, with the realization that my penetration will be slower and perhaps less far, and I may have to do the old fashioned multiple dive thingy to build my own safe circuit, or even abandon the project if I can't lay a trap-free line somehow.
Rick
 
Not to get off topic but I'm trying to understand what's happened here a little better (I'm not a cave diver in other words)...when I read cave dive reports it seems that people are going into the same cave over and over. Is this the case or is it more like going into different parts of the cave each time?

I guess I'm just trying to picture what an experienced caver's "experience" is.
 

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