Cave Diver mishap Ginnie Springs 04SEP09

[netmage]

This is something that needs not only to be watched, it needs to be fixed. I know that it isn't possible to eliminate all line traps on all existing lines overnight, but we (the cave diving community) need to attack this problem one trap at the time with the goal of making a sightless exit probable - not just possible - without leaving the line. This may even take a change in existing law to allow the placement of guideline eye-bolts in places where the line can't be placed reliably around existing structures.
Rick

Ricky... I'm a little twisted up a bit, accidents like this and the incident at Ginnie back in the 'new part' leave me conflicted. Some of these areas are SIGNIFICANTLY advanced,.. when any diver traffic has a high probability of decreasing visibility in the gallery, any sort of traffic should be discouraged.

I'd suggest removing the line all together as a possible alternative... the last thing we need is train wreck morbidity alluring people to some sick thrill...

I don't cave dive for a thrill, and I don't dive deep for macro chest beating adrenalin rush... Its relaxing, exercise, and I get to see some pretty cool stuff. Tony Flaris said it best recently when recounting a dive down the distance tunnel @ Peacock/Orange Grove, and I came to the same conclusion around the same point, "hey - who turned off the fun"....

-Tim

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Ricky... I'm a little twisted up a bit, accidents like this and the incident at Ginnie back in the 'new part' leave me conflicted. Some of these areas are SIGNIFICANTLY advanced,.. when any diver traffic has a high probability of decreasing visibility in the gallery, any sort of traffic should be discouraged.

I'd suggest removing the line all together as a possible alternative... the last thing we need is train wreck morbidity alluring people to some sick thrill...

I don't cave dive for a thrill, and I don't dive deep for macro chest beating adrenalin rush... Its relaxing, exercise, and I get to see some pretty cool stuff. Tony Flaris said it best recently when recounting a dive down the distance tunnel @ Peacock/Orange Grove, and I came to the same conclusion around the same point, "hey - who turned off the fun"....

-Tim

Tim I can agree with some that, I dont do it for a thrill either. I love the geology involved and just looking at how the rocks were carved by the water. But I think your gonna have people go in the places like that anyway. Would it not be wiser to try and make it as safe as possible? I think they will go lines or no lines regardless of how many people who know better tell them not too.

 

[netmage]

Tim I can agree with some that, I dont do it for a thrill either. I love the geology involved and just looking at how the rocks were carved by the water. But I think your gonna have people go in the places like that anyway. Would it not be wiser to try and make it as safe as possible? I think they will go lines or no lines regardless of how many people who know better tell them not too.

The difference being, you'd put your own line in, and when it goes pear shaped..., that reel is in your hands... first time I met the cave monster, was in hindsight very benign, but to a new student, silting out the catacombs can be pretty eye opening... The one thing that made it low stress... The reel was in my hands and I KNEW the other end of that line went to a happy place....

 

[I Dive]

Tim I can agree with some that, I dont do it for a thrill either. I love the geology involved and just looking at how the rocks were carved by the water. But I think your gonna have people go in the places like that anyway. Would it not be wiser to try and make it as safe as possible? I think they will go lines or no lines regardless of how many people who know better tell them not too.

I'm curious. If you end up in no vis and have to follow a line out, how do you know you aren't following the line the wrong way and going deeper into the cave? Pulling yourself on a line seems about as no-brainer as anything can get, except for that pesky little detail about going the correct direction? Your in no vis, so peaking at your compass shouldn't be an option, nor should using any of your surroundings as nav aids. Yes, you've guessed correctly-I don't have cavern or cave training!

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

The difference being, you'd put your own line in, and when it goes pear shaped..., that reel is in your hands... first time I met the cave monster, was in hindsight very benign, but to a new student, silting out the catacombs can be pretty eye opening... The one thing that made it low stress... The reel was in my hands and I KNEW the other end of that line went to a happy place....

Ok I cant argue that. Been there myself.

 

[ucfdiver]

Don't take the line out IMO, it would be back within a day or two. Just exercise some personal responsibility here and if you're going to be going in an area that can reduce the viz in the system, do so late at night after training dives are no longer being conducted.

I'm curious. If you end up in no vis and have to follow a line out, how do you know you aren't following the line the wrong way and going deeper into the cave? Pulling yourself on a line seems about as no-brainer as anything can get, except for that pesky little detail about going the correct direction? Your in no vis, so peaking at your compass shouldn't be an option, nor should using any of your surroundings as nav aids. Yes, you've guessed correctly-I don't have cavern or cave training!

Well, siltouts typically are something that you can predict as you gain experience. You want to make sure you have arrows at increments on the line. Also remember that many caves have flow, either springing or siphoning from where you're at, and you can use that as navigational aide as well.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I'm curious. If you end up in no vis and have to follow a line out, how do you know you aren't following the line the wrong way and going deeper into the cave? Pulling yourself on a line seems about as no-brainer as anything can get, except for that pesky little detail about going the correct direction? Your in no vis, so peaking at your compass shouldn't be an option, nor should using any of your surroundings as nav aids. Yes, you've guessed correctly-I don't have cavern or cave training!

Thats where training and knowing if there are line arrows there. If not you would put your own. We always mark our routes just for that very reason you mention.

 

[netmage]

I'm curious. If you end up in no vis and have to follow a line out, how do you know you aren't following the line the wrong way and going deeper into the cave? Pulling yourself on a line seems about as no-brainer as anything can get, except for that pesky little detail about going the correct direction? Your in no vis, so peaking at your compass shouldn't be an option, nor should using any of your surroundings as nav aids. Yes, you've guessed correctly-I don't have cavern or cave training!

The frequently visited systems have permanent line arrows installed on the line at 100' increments. These line arrows point to the nearest exit... Where things can get complicated are places with multiple entrances and multiple tunnels, where the direction to the closest exit change in relation to your position... Unless doing complex navigation dive, you obviously want to exit where you enter... But for example, in Peacock, if I'm closer to Challenge sink and I have a catastrophic failure... we're hiking out the sink hole and doing the walk of shame to the parking lot...

 

[ianr33]

I'm curious. If you end up in no vis and have to follow a line out, how do you know you aren't following the line the wrong way and going deeper into the cave? Pulling yourself on a line seems about as no-brainer as anything can get,

If you are pulling on the line you are going to break it ,and then you have a real problem!

 

[I Dive]

If you are pulling on the line you are going to break it ,and then you have a real problem!

Like I said, I don't have cavern or cave training!

Maybe you can use my post as further evidence that a person should not cavern or cave dive without training! :mooner: