Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[The Chairman]

I am trying ti think about the recent deaths we have outstanding. Andrew's death at Ginnie, the Midwestern diver that passed at Cow, the OW divers at Buford, this one, and possibly others I've forgotten.

You haven't scratched the surface yet...

 

[Manatee Diver]

As someone who used to write reports on cave diving fatalities for the NSS, I understand some of the problems involved.

• Some people do not want to talk with you about what happened. That could be for a variety of reasons, including a fear of not looking so good.
• Some people will provide inaccurate information for a variety of reasons, including how it will reflect on others. They don't want you to write something that may make someone they like look bad, and (amazingly enough), they don't want you to write something that may bring credit to someone they don't like.
• There is a genuine fear that even your truthful relating of facts can lead to a lawsuit by someone who says your facts imply misplaced fault.

I once did in-depth interviews related to a near fatality, and I got two very different accounts about one aspect of it from the people involved. The critical one (the survivor) told me that if I even mentioned the other person's version, he would refuse to authorize the use of anything he had told me, which was 100% of the information on how things originally went bad. I was (and am) absolutely certain the other person was telling the truth, but eventually it was decided that account could not be included.

For the first two reasons the best you can do is to create a safety culture where things good or bad are reported and evaluated.

For the third one, I've mentioned in the case of a death in the US the estate can't sue for defamation except in some very rare exceptions. As under the law the dead don't have a reputation that needs protecting.

You haven't scratched the surface yet...

What would your estimate of the 2022 cave country death count would be?

 

[boulderjohn]

For the first two reasons the best you can do is to create a safety culture where things good or bad are reported and evaluated.

Yep. Now tell me how to do that.

For the third one, I've mentioned in the case of a death in the US the estate can't sue for defamation except in some very rare exceptions. As under the law the dead don't have a reputation that needs protecting.

It is not necessarily the deceased who might look bad. It could be a survivor who might be perceived to be at fault for the fatality based on the way the facts are presented.

 

[The Chairman]

What would your estimate of the 2022 cave country death count would be?

I wouldn't. I was referring to many, many deaths that have heretofore gone before with no facts proffered.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Yep. Now tell me how to do that.

Go back to accident analysis, show that they won't fault survivors as long as they don't take reckless actions. It might take a few years for the culture to change but it has to somewhere.

It is not necessarily the deceased who might look bad. It could be a survivor who might be perceived to be at fault for the fatality based on the way the facts are presented.

I would be more worried about equipment manufacturers. As long as you are telling the truth any lawyer worth their salt will tell them it is a waste of time. OTOH equipment makers have money and a valid reason to shut up even people telling the truth.

I wouldn't. I was referring to many, many deaths that have heretofore gone before with no facts proffered.

I think we just need a cut off. Start for 2023 or 2024, we can't expect them to go back and assemble data for the last twenty years that there hasn't been open reporting.

 

[boulderjohn]

Go back to accident analysis, show that they won't fault survivors as long as they don't take reckless actions. It might take a few years for the culture to change but it has to somewhere.



I would be more worried about equipment manufacturers. As long as you are telling the truth any lawyer worth their salt will tell them it is a waste of time. OTOH equipment makers have money and a valid reason to shut up even people telling the truth.

Got it. All we have to do is tell lawyers to stop suing people. I am sure they will all agree to that in no time. And you believe that even now, lawyers won't sue anyone in the case of a scuba accident. I guess I don't share your lofty view of the ethics of the legal profession.

It reminds me of a death penalty discussion I listened to a few months ago. One person was opposed to the death penalty because 1) so many people sentenced to death have been later proven to be innocent, and that is often because 2) many times police and district attorneys have been shown to lie to get convictions of people they know to be innocent. The person in favor of the death penalty had a simple solution for both: 1) we just need to stop convicting innocent people, and 2) we just need to stop electing and hiring people who will do that sort of thing. Simple. No problem. Next argument?

A couple of days ago I encountered an online video about a cave fatality that I had investigated thoroughly. It was from a website that regularly posts videos about cave accidents. It was highly inaccurate about one aspect of the story, and that inaccuracy has to be intentional. Either the maker of the video intended it, or the source of information for that video was intentionally inaccurate. I can't tell which, but I suspect it was the latter, and if so, it is a personal bias against people who were involved. How do we protect against that?

 

[Manatee Diver]

Got it. All we have to do is tell lawyers to stop suing people. I am sure they will all agree to that in no time. And you believe that even now, lawyers won't sue anyone in the case of a scuba accident. I guess I don't share your lofty view of the ethics of the legal profession.

Defamation cases are hard to win and rarely done on contingency, so unless your reputation is worth $300 an hour. That is why I said I would be more worried about the equipment manufacturers.

But ultimately that is why you need a body like the IUCRR or NSS-CDS to help edit them to ensure that the statements are purely factual. Avoiding any speculation and opinions because people will veer into that. You don't need to release the raw narrative reports if there are survivors.

I have opinions on the death penalty and LEO lying but this isn't the time or place to discuss them.

 

[Al Stevens]

It would be nice if they would release the details for us so we are not speculating and learn what not to do. We can guess all day as to what happened. Did he start over breathing his CCR? Did he panic? Could he reach his bail out? At the end of the day we must realize what our own limits are. I have been diving a cave with at least 9 T's and with no map. At one of the T's there is a restriction in both directions. The first time I was there I turned. I kept thinking about it later and thought did I really see it as too tight? I went there again looked it over and turned. Obviously someone went past both restrictions and laid line. Just because there is a line doesn't mean you automatically can go there. I know where I can fit and where I can't. We all need to be aware of our limits and not go where it is dangerous to us personally.

 

[John the Pom]

Yep. Now tell me how to do that.

[snip]

Examples of excellent safety cultures do exist - I have worked in such a company. But they take a lot of work to build and continuous effort to maintain. As our head of safety used to say, "There are three simple rules to ensure a good safety culture. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

 

[billgraham]

It would be nice if they would release the details ...

They who?