Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[nakatomi]

don't know the situation in Florida, but at least in France and Italy, it is possible to do long dives in OC since some caves are shallow. I am especially thinking of most caves in Cala Gonone, Sardinia, but I believe some caves in the Lot are also relatively shallow (I was there only within C1 limits, and I am unsure if they continue like that for longer dives)

It's the same in Jackson Blue. The cave is about 90'/27m deep and max penetration around 4500'/1.3km.
Two stages and LP120s filled to 3600psi (equivalent to 20l tanks) will get you anywhere. You do need a scooter or two because up to about 2700' there is significant flow.

As to the agencies, I believe they make a huge difference.
I've seen a lot of GUE beginners in Florida and safety is always in full focus, their diving is by the book. I never saw any standards violations.
And that is quite logical, because what will happen if you break standards, is that you run out of buddies (GUE diving is still team diving, no?) and on top of that your card can be pulled.

For cave divers in Florida from virtually all other agencies I can tell you right now that breaking and bending the rules is extremely common.
No lines run into the cave, blind jumps, stupid gas calculations, no gas matching, no analyzing of tanks etc etc, and of course not observing card limitations and diving above ones limits.
Breaking or bending some of the rules is a sport for many, the only rule that is really frowned upon is breaking thirds, so this one is mostly adhered to. Not by all, and many recalculate their thirds in very wonky ways.

 

[berndo]

And thankfully, you're not the cave police. I know and honor my limits. I don't need others to dictate how I dive. Not all tragedies can be averted through more red tape. I've dealt with a bad back for close to 20 years now. I dive a rebreather for that and the silence. Perhaps after surgery, I'll be able to dive like a kid again. Still, the first rule of diving still applies.

You can't get SM tanks the to water due to your bad back but a ccr and bailout tanks?
Nobody said there should be more red tape or a cave police. Constant talk on here or on fb about how great and safe rebreathers are and that people get one sooner rather than later, isn't making diving safer.

What's the 'first rule of diving'? Don't hold your breath? If you're talking about staying within your limits, it's much easier said than done as it's not always clear cut what's beyond your limit in cave diving. In many accidents people probably thought they were within their limits until it was too late.

 

[cerich]

And thankfully, you're not the cave police. I know and honor my limits. I don't need others to dictate how I dive. Not all tragedies can be averted through more red tape. I've dealt with a bad back for close to 20 years now. I dive a rebreather for that and the silence. Perhaps after surgery, I'll be able to dive like a kid again. Still, the first rule of diving still applies.

Come on Pete, you remember in HS when you were coming up on 16 and wanted to get a drivers license and was told "not until you can run 60 mph to the next city will we let you use a car".
I am all about folks having experience, gradually building upon it and not taking "get card after card with no/hardly any experience between" route, don't get me wrong, but this stuff is tools, have the skills, knowledge and experience to use the tools for the intended dive. The idea that only being a big long time OC cave diver prepares you for cave CCR is flawed IMHO

 

[The Chairman]

Come on Pete, you remember in HS when you were coming up on 16

Dude. I worked at an automotive garage since I was 12. I owned my first car at 14 and drove on the roads in Orlando back then. I had more experience when I finally got my license than many drivers had when they turned 21. Cops looked the other way, mainly because I worked on their vehicles. Sorry to bust that point, but having a license didn't stop people from getting into accidents. It didn't stop them from dying either. Florida even went so far as to initiate vehicle inspections back in the 70s. I don't think that saved any lives either. In fact, I was probably far, far safter before I got my FDL.

You can't get SM tanks the to water due to your bad back but a ccr and bailout tanks?

Why don't you worry about you, and leave me be? No one who's ever seen me in the water on my rebreather, backmount, sidemount, or even without a bladder has had only praise for my trim and neutral buoyancy. Even JJ praised me for that and I was put in a GUE video talking about the importance of it all. I'm old and not all my joints work like they used to, so I've adapted my diving to honor my frailties and still be safe. Being the notorious NetDoc, my diving is scrutinized more than most.

 

[berndo]

The idea that only being a big long time OC cave diver prepares you for cave CCR is flawed IMHO

You learn to dive on basic gear, get good, spend time underwater, maybe run into some issue you can fix and than you progress to more complicated more potentially dangerous gear that requires more skill and much more bandwith to operate. What's flawed with this argument?
I don't think your driving analogy works here.

I don't think you can get a lot of experience in a couple of years. Maybe if you don't have a job and can go diving every other day.

Why don't you worry about you, and leave me be? No one who's ever seen me in the water on my rebreather, backmount, sidemount, or even without a bladder has had only praise for my trim and neutral buoyancy. Even JJ praised me for that and I was put in a GUE video talking about the importance of it all. I'm old and not all my joints work like they used to, so I've adapted my diving to honor my frailties and still be safe. Being the notorious NetDoc, my diving is scrutinized more than most.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. Some people can trim out fine after open water class, it's a basic skill. It's not really something I'd brag about.

My point was that selling/marketing CCRs to new divers doesn't make diving safer. And I think there is a chance this issue played a role in this case too.

 

[ginti]

As to the agencies, I believe they make a huge difference.
I've seen a lot of GUE beginners in Florida and safety is always in full focus, their diving is by the book. I never saw any standards violations.
And that is quite logical, because what will happen if you break standards, is that you run out of buddies (GUE diving is still team diving, no?) and on top of that your card can be pulled.

Ok, but in this case, what GUE does or does not allow is irrelevant; the point is not "what agencies allow their students to do" - but that students often break standards, and that is easier with agencies other than GUE...

The idea that only being a big long time OC cave diver prepares you for cave CCR is flawed IMHO

Hi @cerich, I can only learn from a diver like you, so please don't mind if I am curious and ask you from a perspective different than yours I don't even dive CCR, to give you an idea.

The way I see it, cave diving is often easier than open water diving, but the margin of error is (very) much more minor. In other words, although diving is often easier, silly issues can lead to severe accidents and, potentially, death. Therefore, I feel it is crucial to become confident in the environment before adding complexity to the dives.

In my view, CC adds complexity. Therefore, although it is just a tool, it is crucial first to develop a lot of confidence with a less complex setup (OC) and only then adds the complexity of CC. I think it is more or less the same view of @berndo here.

So, although I understand your point that OC vs CC is just a tool - I still cannot see how developing OC experience before using CCR in overhead environments would not be safer. Could you point out what point of my argument is wrong in your perspective, and why?

Many thanks!

 

[wgw04024]

Whomever is taking this into the direction of 'agnecies need to be responsible for divers', please just stop. This is a ridiculous pov. This is one activity (such like flying, hang gliding, sky diving), that if someone needs anyone else/agency to protect them from themselves, that you should not be in.

Furthermore, in all my time here, I've never ever once, felt like anyone talked in a tone that made me think 'i should do this, get this' because they are.

You are always diving alone, and making your own decisions, always...

 

[Underwater Tourist]

Bottom line: it looks like the death was due to zero-to-hero training, coupled with a fast transition to the cool-kid's sw ccr, that resulted into lacking experience for the dive he was doing to the point that when **** hit the fan and the person panicked, he drowned with 1 tank with 2400psi of gas in it - which could even have been enough to sustain him until help arrived.

If that was the case, then poor line laying is like 99th contributor factor at best.

 

[lermontov]

I disagree. Not only does the SW add bulk and snag points compared to just OC LP85s, it also adds complexity. An extra stage (which wouldn't have been needed) you can take off easily. I don't think you can take the off the cans of a SW, not without flodding the unit anyways.
There just was a thread in which people argued that ccr is safer than OC in caves. While that may be true for deep and long dives, in this case it clearly wasn't.

your talking about the suitability of a profile -im talking about the decision to push

 

[Kay Dee]

................. because what will happen if you break standards, is that you run out of buddies (GUE diving is still team diving, no?) and on top of that your card can be pulled.

Pardon my ignorance and straying off-topic but are you saying that GUE can pull / cancel a regular (non instructor) GUE divers cert? Given I imagine they cant physically confiscate the card (certainly not mine if I had one of theirs), do they alert every dive shop in the world that said card / cert is no longer valid? No, seriously, pardon my facetiousness but how do GUE enforce a "pulled card"?