Catastrophic Failure - How much weight to drop? Theoretical Discussion

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If (for our discussion) the most critical objective is avoidance of decompression sickness, how much weight should you drop in an emergency to be able to make it to the top in a controlled fashion, and probably not run out of exhalable lung volume on the way up? What should you drop?

Nothing. They call it a *Controlled* Emergency Swimming Ascent for a reason.

Let’s make it interesting, just for argument’s sake:
1. 160 lb guy with a 7mm full wetsuit plus a hooded vest, requiring a total of 28 lb of lead at the surface, diving Monterey Bay 55 degree water.
2. 95 cu ft steel tank with -5 lb buoyancy full, -1 lb buoyancy empty.
At the surface, he floats eyeball high with an empty tank. At 10 ft, he can do a fin pivot with an almost empty BC and variable lung volume.
But he has a catastrophic failure upon reaching the bottom at 99 ft/3 atm with a nearly full tank, and his buddy is nowhere to be seen. If you spare me the “where was his buddy?” and “why not a drysuit?”, then how much weight should he drop to probably make it to the surface alive?

But I won't spare you the question about the drysuit. After you've gotten too cold in a 5mm, you should be using a drysuit. Period.

At 99ft/3 ATA, his 28 lb buoyant wetsuit has been compressed to 1/8 it’s previous volume, or +3.5 lb, so he’s 24.5 lb heavy. His tanks are almost full, so let’s say they’re still -4 lb. That’s 28.5 lb that is being compensated for by the BC for neutral buoyancy at the bottom. Or am I missing something?

Why does he need to ballistically shoot to the surface when he's got a full tank of gas?

Normally this kind of situation either happens towards the end of a dive when someone goes OOA, or at some point when someone has a free-flow and drains their tank.

If he drops his weight belt, he can almost empty his BC and swim up his -4 lb tank without worrying too much about his BC’s increasing buoyancy with all the air he had at the bottom, especially in the last 33 ft. Or maybe even doff the (now useless) BC and tank too! But oops! What about his wetsuit? By the time he reaches the surface, he’s 28 lb light and moving fast.
Well, then, how about he just drops the BC and useless tank, and keeps his weight belt so he’s neutral at the end? At the bottom, he’s now 24.5lb heavy and can’t swim up that much. Even if he drops some, with all that extra weight at the beginning of the ascent, he’s working hard on one lungful of air. Bad. And he's now light at the end. Bad.

I've tried this with double-130s filled with 32% (-20# of gas) and as much drysuit squeeze as I could bear and I could kick off the bottom and get going fine. Without having redundant buoyancy doing a stop like that would kind of suck and I was working hard to tread water, but I could do it for awhile. If you let me ascend, though, then everything expands.

If he keeps his BC to have a neutral start with his weight belt, and bleeds air to a neutral end counting his expanding wetsuit, then why bother to have droppable weight in the first place? And what about BC failures?

Yes, tech divers don't use ditchable weight because uncontrollable ascents are contraindicated with tech diving. They do carry redundancy and are trained to avoid and solve problems underwater rather than reaching directly for the surface bailout.

Most BC failures are also recoverable (e.g. losing your LP inflator or dump valve) and you can still breathe off your regulator at the surface to get to the boat. If you're considering both catastrophic BC failure at the same time as an OOA, you've got a diver that needs to plan better or take up golfing. At that point, though, if you really must mitigate the problem the solution is a drysuit, and then a scooter.

For rec diving I'll have a drysuit if its cold, and if its warm enough for a 5mm wetsuit then I can swim it up. For deep tech there's usually a scooter involved (or for cave you can figure out some way to crawl out).

If he drops a lot, with an easy start (buoyancy-wise) he’s moves fast at the beginning, but even faster at the end. Bad.
Give me your expertise: with a catastrophic failure at depth, how do you get to the top unbent, and (probably) alive? I don’t want the answer to be: divers that go to 100 ft in coldish water have to use a drysuit--because this is an academic exercise.

Well, that's the best answer.

Should he carry two separate droppable weight systems, so he can keep some and drop some? How much to drop?

No. And None.

---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 02:04 AM ----------

My conclusions:
If it's a BC failure, I need help from my buddy (rec divers only - that's another discussion).

Most likely you don't. It may not float you comfortably on the surface, but it'll trap enough gas to get you neutral and you'll be able to keep a regulator in your mouth and get back on the boat.

This is why you need to practice gas management and never run out of gas. If you're going OOA and getting back on the boat with less than 500 psi a lot, then you're severely limiting your options if anything else goes wrong.

If it's a first stage failure, I'm already neutral and I just swim up, vent BC air, exhale and hope for the best.
If it's a medical emergency, I won't drop the victim's weight, but I'll pop a little burst of air into the BC and help him/swim him up.

Dropping the weight belt of another diver underwater, particularly an unconscious one, is a way to make absolutely certain that you kill them. They will embolise and there's no coming back. Wherever you got the idea that you should do that, you definitely need to adjust that.

Reaching down with my right hand to blindly drop all my weight is something I'm going to try to erase from my muscle memory, and leave for a conscious, slower decision for special cases when DCS isn't a concern, but getting air is. You know, the run-of-the-mill stupid mistakes that at least once happen to all of us, where you might be OOA and flots will call you stupid and bring Darwin down on you.

You should have been trained to only drop weights on the surface. Swim to the surface, orally inflate (either off your regulator or just use the atmosphere -- depending on sea conditions and your gas supply) and *then* drop your weights.

I just think I'm going to try to remove "drop my weight belt!" from my early decision tree. Thank you all for a great thread!

If you were properly instructed, and you paid attention, it should never have been there in the first place.
 
Hmmm..well this thread has given me something to ponder..i often dive with no weight at all...as a travel diver carrying a pony is not an option..id have to rely on BCD for a controlled ascent assuming that it wasnt a catastrophic BCD failure as well. If it was..well, id be dumping everything if i still had a working reg and air and riding that to the surface if possible I guess. Interesting remark about cramp, saw a diver struck with a severe cramp a few months ago...started with a cramp ending up with him shooting towards the surface but luckily another diver grabbed him quickly. Hmm...what would I do with no weight to dump???
 
Yes, tech divers don't use ditchable weight because uncontrollable ascents are contraindicated with tech diving. They do carry redundancy and are trained to avoid and solve problems underwater rather than reaching directly for the surface.

Yes. But not just tech divers. I was taught no ditchable weights right out of OW.

I think the concept of ditchable weight is a nod to our primal fears of drowning, not a rational solution to any situation underwater. But having ditchable weight on you to soothe that primal fear a) creates the possibility of a failure if they come off by accident and b) creates the possibility that you will deliberately drop them in a situation, and there is no situation where that won't make things worse.

Good response, Lamont.

---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 06:57 AM ----------

Steel LP 95, add 5# lead if using an Al 80
SS backplate (my best recollection is 8# neg)
Pony (3# neg when full)
6# ankle weights (divided) - would be less if my fins were negative, but they are neutral.
2# tank trim weight (becomes 2 + 3 if not using my pony, or 5 + 5 if Al 80 and no pony)
and 10# (5 each dumpable pouch) weight harness.

Summed up: 5# steel tank + 8# SS backplate + 3# pony + 2# lead trim + 6# ankle weights + 10# weight belt = 34 pounds

SS backplate is usually 6#.

Everyone is a little different, but you're probably carrying 6-8 lbs more than you need. The only way to know for sure is to do a proper weight check.

Do a dive. When you are in the shallows (less than 10ft of water), breathe your tank down to 500 psi. Empty your suit and wing and you should be good and negative. Start handing off weights to your buddy and checking whether you're still negative. When you get to the point where a deep breath floats you off the bottom, with 500 psi in your tank, that's just about right. Remember, this means you will be a few pounds more negative when your tanks are full.

How will you do a weight check with all your various weights that are attached in awkward places? I would recommend you try diving without the ankle weights (ever, honestly) and lose the trim weight and pony. Carry equivalent small weights in your pockets. Maybe use an 8# belt and carry the extra two in your pocket as well.

Why do a dive first rather than just get in the water with a 500 psi tank? Because you will have more gas in your drysuit when you first get in, and not the squeeze you can create by coming up from depth. It's a more accurate check.

Why do a weight check at all? Because its the best way to figure out what you actually need to control your buoyancy. Being overweighted is the worst thing for buoyancy control and good buoyancy control is the most important safety skill a diver can have.

Which is why its funny, all this talk about ditching weights and uncontrolled ascents, when pretty much the most dangerous thing you can do is cork, and the most important skill you can learn is buoyancy control so that you DON'T cork.
 
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I carry a 19 cu ft pony to reduce the probability of a catastrophic failure affecting my life. In my 50+ years of diving, the only times I've had such a situation were (1) back about 1969 when I didn't carry a pony and the tan k proved to be near empty instead of full. Back in those days we didn't have SPGs and (2) when I foolishly decided NOT To strap my pony on for what I planned to be a 40 ft dive and ended up at 80 ft with a clogged dip tube.

Neither time did I ditch my weights. However, I have been giving a bit of thought to dividing the 38# on my belt into 20# in weight pockets and 18# on the belt. So far I haven't done that, but I'm a procrastinator.
 
Yes. But not just tech divers. I was taught no ditchable weights right out of OW.

I think the concept of ditchable weight is a nod to our primal fears of drowning, not a rational solution to any situation underwater. But having ditchable weight on you to soothe that primal fear a) creates the possibility of a failure if they come off by accident and b) creates the possibility that you will deliberately drop them in a situation, and there is no situation where that won't make things worse.

Good response, Lamont.

---------- Post added March 11th, 2013 at 06:57 AM ----------



SS backplate is usually 6#.

Everyone is a little different, but you're probably carrying 6-8 lbs more than you need. The only way to know for sure is to do a proper weight check.

Do a dive. When you are in the shallows (less than 10ft of water), breathe your tank down to 500 psi. Empty your suit and wing and you should be good and negative. Start handing off weights to your buddy and checking whether you're still negative. When you get to the point where a deep breath floats you off the bottom, with 500 psi in your tank, that's just about right. Remember, this means you will be a few pounds more negative when your tanks are full.

How will you do a weight check with all your various weights that are attached in awkward places? I would recommend you try diving without the ankle weights (ever, honestly) and lose the trim weight and pony. Carry equivalent small weights in your pockets. Maybe use an 8# belt and carry the extra two in your pocket as well.

Why do a dive first rather than just get in the water with a 500 psi tank? Because you will have more gas in your drysuit when you first get in, and not the squeeze you can create by coming up from depth. It's a more accurate check.

Why do a weight check at all? Because its the best way to figure out what you actually need to control your buoyancy. Being overweighted is the worst thing for buoyancy control and good buoyancy control is the most important safety skill a diver can have.

Which is why its funny, all this talk about ditching weights and uncontrolled ascents, when pretty much the most dangerous thing you can do is cork, and the most important skill you can learn is buoyancy control so that you DON'T cork.

I think most on this thread like to push the idea that an uncontrolled ascent is a huge danger---and the ditchable weight issue becomes an issue with many....
The thing is, this is in a Recreational Diving Forum, in a recreational diving thread.....and this means No Stop diving. We are not talking about a tech diver at 200 feet coming up from a 25 minute dive, where an uncontrollable ascent is a severe threat to their life....

The severe threat to the Recreational Diver's life, is not being able to get to the surface.....Since they are not doing a deco dive, if they are having an emergency at depth, and they need to ditch weight to reach the surface, the issue of a slow ascent or a stop is foolish for them to be worrying about at depth, glued to the bottom.....and I have spoken with divers that have been in that "place", and that were making their decision on this FAULTY basis.

DCS is not the Determining factor, and should not even be relevant WHEN COMPARED to not being able to get off the bottom. If someone too negative to get off the bottom after an 80 foot dive for 20 or 30 minutes on Nitrox decides to dump 20 pounds of weight, they will shoot to the surface( probably) and once there, they will probably be just fine.

Back in the 60's and 70's, practically ALL DIVERS would shoot for 60 for 60, and many would stay down until the tank was empty, and then do a free ascent. And this did not mean the bends..this meant it was time to strap on another tank for another dive an hour later.
 
Dan, you're right. I wasn't suggesting, however, that DCS is the main concern with an uncontrolled ascent on a recreational dive. Lung over expansion injury, however, is a real risk. I've seen three and heard of more (locally) and they are ugly. Buddy separation is also not something you want to add to the cluster*** that was apparently already happening when someone decided that ditching their weights was the right maneuver, or they slid out of their pockets unbidden. And then there's panic, which can kill someone at depth OR on the surface. A panicked diver will do all sorts of things you don't expect. Like kneeling on the bottom frantically dumping gas out of their wing, trying to go up. Uncontrolled ascents can cause panic.

Also, subclinical DCS, though not life threatening, sucks, and an uncontrolled ascent will usually cause some symptoms. Combined with other things, an uncontrolled ascent CAN hurt a recreational diver. Remember we are not talking about hugely vascularized Irvine types who go for a run after a deep cave dive just to see what the Doppler says. we are talking people like me.


Maggie
 
SS backplate is usually 6#.

Everyone is a little different, but you're probably carrying 6-8 lbs more than you need. The only way to know for sure is to do a proper weight check.

Whirling Girl, Thank you. But if you read my post carefully you will see that I have done experiments and this is the minimum I can dive with. For those of you that still question the need for this weight I'll explain further.

SS backplate - just measured it #9.6 soaking wet. OK, it is heavier than most, but then I carry less lead.

DUI TLS350 Drysuit with USIA underwear - just enough to keep me warm.
When diving I empty ALL of the air from my wing (I dive single tank and this works very well for me) and empty enough air from my suit to descend motionless (yes I have crossed my ankles and held my hands to check). There is only enough air in my suit to keep me tolerably warm. I have had 2 instructors comment that I should probably keep MORE air in my suit - I'm fine with the amount, but that does tend to indicated that I'm not over inflating my suit either. With my current weighting I can hold a MOTIONLESS 15' safety stop with an empty (typically 1000 psi) cylinder. Anything less and I have to actively work to hold the stop. And if you didn't notice I have a 22% body fat. Not sure how physics will allow me to dive with any less weight, and with all the divers I dive with my buoyancy control is as good or better than 90% of them.

Sorry to 'flame' you back but if you read the original reply carefully it should have been obvious that I know how to do a buoyancy check.
 
My apologies. Most don't have a clue how to do a buoyancy check. I had to learn. And the beauty of a buoyancy check is it doesn't matter how much your individual gear weighs. Also, I didn't realize you were counting your tank in your total. I usually think about how much weight I need to dive a particular set of tanks. My bad.

who made your backplate? Did you weigh it without the webbing, just bare? Irrelevant but I'm curious now who is making 9# backplates.

Maggie
 
I think most on this thread like to push the idea that an uncontrolled ascent is a huge danger---and the ditchable weight issue becomes an issue with many....
The thing is, this is in a Recreational Diving Forum, in a recreational diving thread.....and this means No Stop diving. We are not talking about a tech diver at 200 feet coming up from a 25 minute dive, where an uncontrollable ascent is a severe threat to their life....

Actually, yes, that's also true as well.

You can ditch 20# of lead and go ballistic from 100 feet and as long as you keep your airway open and exhale the whole way up, you are pretty unlikely to have any bad effects. Worrying about getting bent in that case is also worrying about the wrong thing. As long as you avoid AGE injuries you're likely to be fine. The only qualification I'd make to that is that we could be talking about a recreational diver who not only wasn't watching their gas, but wasn't watching thier NDL and ran out of air when they did have a deco obligation, in which case the rapid ascent means that they wouldn't be offgassing any of their fast tissues, which makes type II DCS more likely in that case (and I believe there was a guy who was paralyzed due to a situation very similar to this in florida a few years back). But you're kinda hosed no matter what there -- the solution is to pay attention...
 
who made your backplate? Did you weigh it without the webbing, just bare? Irrelevant but I'm curious now who is making 9# backplates.

While most SS plates are 5 or 6 lbs, FredT has made (and maybe still making) 9# and 12# backplates.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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