Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[bsee65]

The past few posts seem to focus on whether or not the instructor did the right thing.

I see the incident with someone dead and ask what happened. You reply that no one really knows, but it certainly wasn't the instructors fault. Don't even ask about anything the instructor actually saw or did during the event, and why are you out to get her? There's a difference between wanting to get to the truth and what you characterize as almost a crusade to hang the instructor out to dry. If there were more actual detail available, there would be less speculation and fewer questions. I can see how a poster's suggestion that anything that goes wrong in the class is likely the instructor's fault would make a friend become defensive, but let's try to look at things as objectively as possible and without assuming the worst possible intentions of others.

If you are simply told that someone died, there are literally thousands of possible scenarios. If I told you the death occurred during a dive, that might limit it to hundreds of possibilities. If you heard that the victim was 20 years old, you would rule out a bunch of medical scenarios that might be high on the list of likely causes for a 50 year old. Tell us it was a DM who died in ten feet of water in the pool, and it will look a lot different than an OW diver at 65fsw. Different questions will be asked to fill in the blanks based upon the knowleddge base at any point in time.

In this case, the open questions in my mind are:
1. What caused the victim to initially decide to ascend?
2. How rapid was the initial ascent?
3. How quickly and by what signal did the instructor realize something was wrong, or was the instructor paying special attention to this diver
4. How many students and dive professionals were part of this training dive, and what was the original plan? How long had the participants been in the water?
5. What did the instructor actually do during the first 40' or so of the ascent to slow the victim?
6. What caused the victim to bolt for the surface when she escaped the instructor?
7. How did the victim ascend, swimming or bouyancy control, and did that change at the point of "bolting"? Was there a pause at whatever depth the situation changed, or was the OOA signal given on the fly?
8. In retrospect, were there any signs that might have tipped someone off to a problem earlier?
9. What happened with the rest of the class?
10. What was the victim's actual dive history and skill level?

All of these questions are neutral, for lack of a better term, with no pre-conceived determination of fault. I realize that we don't have an absolute right to the answers and that no one is bound to provide them, but they would go a long way toward understanding what exactly occurred, if anything could have been done to prevent it, and if there is a lesson to be learned that could prevent a future incident.

 

[cruiser]

Along the lines of the student bolting because of panic, I don't think she panicked until after she gave the OOA signal.

A panic-stricken person doesn't have the frame of mind to communicate an OOA signal, they're just determined on getting to the surface as fast as they can.

 

[merxlin]

bsee65- I'll let Bill answer as well, but I believe that some of these questions have been answered. Whether the answers are satisfactory or not will depend on how much detail you want. What you seem to be looking for is a professional level accident analysis. Maybe DAN or PADI could supply that, but certainly getting all this information, at least in the initial stages of an accident, seem unlikely for a message board discussion. Specifically, liability and the fact that this instructor may not be a member of this board will limit some of the responses.

If I may paraphrase what was listed in the discussion thus far:

1. What caused the victim to initially decide to ascend? Described as panic due to perceived (not actual) OOA
2. How rapid was the initial ascent? Rapid enough to cause the instructor to have to try and arrest it. The description of "bolted" was actually used by someone in the water with them and who knew the diver
3. How quickly and by what signal did the instructor realize something was wrong, or was the instructor paying special attention to this diver The instructor was directly communicating with the diver because of her LOA/OOA signal
4. How many students and dive professionals were part of this training dive, and what was the original plan? How long had the participants been in the water?
5. What did the instructor actually do during the first 40' or so of the ascent to slow the victim?
6. What caused the victim to bolt for the surface when she escaped the instructor? Wouldn't the diver be the only one that could answer this?
7. How did the victim ascend, swimming or buoyancy control, and did that change at the point of "bolting"? Was there a pause at whatever depth the situation changed, or was the OOA signal given on the fly? As stated in the thread - diver perceived OOA at 65ft, "discussion" with instructor (including instructor looking at her gauges), then a rapid ascent with an attempt to slow it by the instructor, although unknown if it was due to inflating BC or just swimming. Instructor and diver arrested ascent at between 25 and 15ft, then diver separated from instructor and another rapid ascent to the surface
8. In retrospect, were there any signs that might have tipped someone off to a problem earlier? Not according to her boyfriend, who I talked with within 2 hours of the incident
9. What happened with the rest of the class? I met up with some of them at our hotel a short time after the incident. Are you asking how they ended their dive? As far as I know they did not continue diving that day.
10. What was the victim's actual dive history and skill level? All we know if that she was taking her advanced open water classes. I heard but do not know for sure that she was recently certified in perhaps March or May of this year, and had done some diving since.

I will admit that some of this information may not be accurate, and came from my memory of conversations with the diver's boyfriend and other members of the dive group, and additions made by Dr. Bill. They were short conversations, as I didn't feel the need to get into a lot of detail at the time. These people were still shocked by the accident, and needed to handle their own situations.

 

[openmindOW]

OW card holders are Certified Divers and are making an effort to become better divers by taking an AOW class.

You made the general statement of "much OW training today is poor" based on what; Personal experience, reading about it here or what?

Just how does this help us learn from or understand the incident at Catalina?

Teamcasa, I mentioned OW students, not OW divers. OW students are not yet certified, while AOW students are certified.

Thall is correct. I refer to the generally accepted postion that OW training programs are dumbed down. I also speak from experience; I've been teaching SCUBA for more more time than I care to admit. I hate reminding people about my advanced age.

OW training today is pretty bad. If you doubt that, just read some of the threads on the Instructor board.

 

[openmindOW]

If the victim had a heart attack, it does not. If the victim panicked as a result of some otherwise trivial stimulus, everything.

Amen. But the failure could very well have been with the OW Instructor, not the AOW Instructor.

AOW Instructors inherit divers, good or bad.

 

[Thalassamania]

That's why a truly effective checkout scheme is so essential.

 

[drbill]

bsee65... I don't believe I have characterized the majority of posts (former and current) in this thread as being "out to get her." There were a few that I felt were quite uncalled for, but most that I objected to were due to unfounded speculation that appeared to have no relevance to the known facts of the case.

I think we'd ALL (myself included) LIKE to know the answers to the questions you posed (some of which I, too, feel HAVE been answered). However no one is obligated to give those answers, and in some cases giving the answers would be unwise if investigations into the death are on-going (as they are).

It would be great if someone of authority (the coroner, the expert witnesses called in to investigate this, etc.) could give us those answers. However, this is a process un derway without a final conclusion. I hope when it is over we WILL hear the best possible reconstruction of what happened.

However, probably the most important eyewitness to this incident is one we will not hear from. That is the reality of the situation.

We have to (or at least should) wait for the results of an aircraft incident until it is fully investigated for cause and the NTSB releases its findings. Be patient, grasshopper. No one is trying to block the facts, just unwarranted speculation.

 

[Thalassamania]

We will NEVER hear from the "investigators" that work for PADI, et.al., beyond the self-serving comments that you got from the "Course Director." We may get some useful data from the Coroner's Office (thank god for LA in that respect, Noguchi established a fine tradition of quality diving autopsies).

 

[merxlin]

I have to ask here: what will we gain by finding out any more information at this point? This one incident has brought up some very detailed discussions about:

• Embolisms and barotrauma, causes & consequences
• Depth limits and training standards for advanced and basic open water students
• Whether those standards are adequate
• Safe ascent rates
• Panic and its causes
• Offer alt air immediately if OOA signal given-or OK to check gauges first
• The state of dive training today
• Possible testing/evaluation before taking on students you didn't certify
• How to stop/slow a bolting diver
• Speculation- good or bad?
• Instructor liability and responsibility during classes
• Certified diver responsibility, when recreational diving and during classes

Other than hearing from the instructor with specifics about what may have caused the diver to rapidly ascend, not once but twice, and how they dealt with it, what else could we discuss?

 

[drbill]

To respond to point 7 in bsee65's list, it is my recollection that the OOA signal by the student was not given until the ascent to about 25 ft rather than at 60-65 ft.

I think one piece of "evidence" that speaks loud and strong to the qualifications of this instructor is that her students are apparently chafing at the bit to get back in the water with her and resume their training. I saw two of them out here at Casino Point the weekend after the fatal incident, and I know that others have been asking when they can resume class.

What more evidence does one need?