Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[Bubbletrubble]

Speaking as an instructor with over 30 years of diving experience I can state quite firmly from personal experience that you cannot always control everything even if you can see it happening and take immediate steps to remedy a situation. Fortunately for me the event I could not control took place in the pool. I am 6'3" 220 lbs., I had a student who was a football player, 6' 5" 250 lbs. (at least) and all muscle. We were doing a mask flood exercise, he could not clear his mask, I had a hand on his BC, I saw his eyes go wide and grabbed him before he even started moving, he got his legs under him and we were on the surface of the pool in very short order. There are things beyond ANYONE'S ability to control. I am NOT speculating on what occurred in the incident but I must take offense at anyone's statements implying "guilty until proven innocent," or that the instructor must have done something wrong or that an instructor just "should" have been able to deal with any situation or that instructor just isn't a "good" instructor. Notwithstanding anyone's long experience, to make such sweeping statements is not reasonable.

@stedel: Full disclosure here: I'm not a scuba instructor. I don't have 1,000+ dives. I have no experience with scuba accident analysis. However, I do have a fair amount of teaching experience. Based on my credentials, I'll have to live with the possibility that you will choose to ignore everything I write.

The example you give is a good one. Based on the physical dimensions of the student, you would have us believe that there was nothing that you could do to prevent your student's rapid uncontrolled ascent. Let me blunt here. This kind of hopeless, it's-out-of-my-hands kind of thinking might help assuage your conscience but it does little to prevent similar situations in the future.

I would probably have to agree with you that, in your example, once the student decided to bolt, there was very little that you could do. But what about modifying the training so that the possibility of this is minimized? More specifically, create exercises to build the confidence of the student in a stepwise manner. For instance, to help set up the student for success with the mask clearing exercise, one could:

• Do some breathing exercises at the surface first. Breathe in through the mouth and out through the nose. Teach the student to be relaxed in the water.
• Allow the student to do some snorkeling at the surface, first with a mask and then without.
• Have the student breath off of his regulator just below the surface of the water with a mask...then without a mask.
• Have him breathe off of his regulator at the bottom of the shallow end (3 feet) of the pool with his mask...and then without it.
• Have him do the mask-clearing drill in 3 feet of water.
• Have him repeat all of these exercises until he is really comfortable with them (mastery?) before moving to the deep end of the pool for the mask-clearing exercise.

I think the last point is key. By becoming proficient at all of these incremental exercises, the student greatly reduces the probability that he will bolt to the surface during mask-clearing at the deep end of the pool.

It is possible to do these exercises and adopt such an approach to training even when affiliated with an agency that, by most accounts, has the most watered-down set of basic OW requirements in the industry. I know at least one PADI instructor who does this. He doesn't teach large classes. His classes can take several weeks (sometimes months) to complete, but after the confined water dives in basic OW class he's confident that his students won't bolt during the OW dives. He also insists on having a pool session at the beginning of each AOW class during which every student performs all of the skills that he was asked to do in basic OW, including the swim and tread water tests. He then proceeds to schedule the navigation and night dives prior to the deep dive.

I think that the PADI instructor I know is a good one. He has taken steps, above and beyond what is required by his agency, to ensure that his students will be successful...that they will be safe, confident divers. This doesn't eliminate the possibility altogether that his students will succumb to panic under water, but it dramatically reduces the chances of that happening.

And before someone reiterates a motion for splitting this training discussion off to another thread, I'd like to state my case for leaving this post and the discussion that follows here in the A&I forum. The issue of training bears direct relevance to this tragedy. To say otherwise, is myopic and downright dangerous. I don't think we should be throwing up our hands and saying: "Well, we did everything we could do. Bad stuff happens. It's tragic that this student died. Let's not talk about it any longer for fear of hurting the instructor's feelings." It's not an issue of "innocent until proven guilty" or "guilty until proven innocent" or being "insensitive." If we don't take an objective look at the chain of events influencing the outcome, then we are doomed to have more students die during dive training...needlessly. The loss is great for the individual, tragic for family/friends/loved ones, and traumatic for the instructor/DMs involved. I don't think anyone wants that.

It's my understanding that certain towns and cities wait for "X" number of accidents or fatalities to occur at an intersection before putting up a stoplight. Perhaps we should be looking at changing the dive curriculum in light of this tragedy. Perhaps the training agency in question should require a pool session (during which all of the basic OW skills are reviewed and swim + treading water test are done) before any AOW dives are conducted.

 

[merxlin]

Bubble: I disagree 100%. Do we know that this instructor did not do all those things? We do not, so this thread is not the place for this discussion. It is a gross generalization that if the student had an issue, there is a training flaw. What makes knowing a skill at 3ft, 8ft, or 12ft the same as 100ft? It may make the student more confident, but certainly does not eliminate any possibility of panic. Looking at it another way: this was a certified diver and could have gone to the depth at which the incident took place without any supervision, and been within standards. Had they done the same thing, there would have been numerous comments about how the student should have taken an Advanced class before. IMO, this is strictly a standards and practices discussion about what should happen in OW and AOW.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Do we know that this instructor did not do all those things?

No, we do not. It is possible that the instructor held a pool session to review all of the basic OW skills prior to commencing AOW dives. My post addressed stedel's anecdote and how modifications in training could help mitigate the risks of a student bolting during a mask-clearing exercise. I then extended the argument by stating that raising standards in training can be used to mitigate risks inherent in AOW dives, in particular to decrease the chances that a student bolts for the surface (which it appears occurred in this case). Do you disagree with this?

It is a gross generalization that if the student had an issue, there is a training flaw.

I agree. I interpret your phrase "training flaw" to include both the design of the curriculum and the implementation by the instructor. I didn't say that the lower training standards caused the incident in question. I only proposed that AOW training could be improved by adding a required pool session (for basic skills review) prior to commencing OW dives and that this would decrease the chances of a diver having an inappropriate response (bolting for surface) on a training dive.

What makes knowing a skill at 3ft, 8ft, or 12ft the same as 100ft? It may make the student more confident, but certainly does not eliminate any possibility of panic.

I agree. Please re-read my previous post. I make this point explicitly.

IMO, this is strictly a standards and practices discussion about what should happen in OW and AOW.

Might I ask what would be the impetus for such a discussion? Should we wait until an accident presents itself that shows an undeniable causative link between inadequate training and death?
In light of what's happened, at the very least, we should consider implementing measures to decrease the chances of something like this happening again. Isn't that the point of the A&I forum?

 

[Thalassamania]

John, you are correct ... they do not, it was as Merxlin suggested a strawman skill.

 

[openmindOW]

Am I at ALL making it clear why I feel it is wrong to assume that whenever there is a dive accident during a class, you can assume that the *most likely* reason is that the instructor did something wrong?

The problem her is that the discussion is revolving about generalities. OW students are different from AOW students, who are certified divers.

Regarding Thall's postion, I both agree with him and question his statement.

I question Thall's assertion that most diver fatialites are caused by poor training. A significant portion of diver fatalities are caused by underlying medical conditions. Yes, there may be a training issue there, in that divers should be taught to not dive if they are not feeling well. But some cardiac events can happen without warning.

On the other hand, much OW training today is poor. So, when a diver dies due to reasons non-medical reasons, I say look to the training that the diver received. Sorry, LeeAnn, but the training has gotten that bad. Thall is onto something there.

 

[Thalassamania]

From what I've seen, and far too few of the training fatalities we looked at had good autopsy information, underlying medical conditions did not seem to be a big deal. DAN is now making a little fuss about that, but I have doubts about their approach and analysis. Someone who dies of of heart attack while diving should still be, in my opinion, counted as a diving fatality, but such an instance does, in my mind, shift the onus from the instructor who is in the water as long as the rescue was performed as well as might be expected (which seems to be the case in this accident).

 

[Teamcasa]

The problem her is that the discussion is revolving about generalities. OW students are different from AOW students, who are certified divers.

Regarding Thall's postion, I both agree with him and question his statement.

I question Thall's assertion that most diver fatialites are caused by poor training. A significant portion of diver fatalities are caused by underlying medical conditions. Yes, there may be a training issue there, in that divers should be taught to not dive if they are not feeling well. But some cardiac events can happen without warning.

On the other hand, much OW training today is poor. So, when a diver dies due to reasons non-medical reasons, I say look to the training that the diver received. Sorry, LeeAnn, but the training has gotten that bad. Thall is onto something there.

OW card holders are Certified Divers and are making an effort to become better divers by taking an AOW class.

You made the general statement of "much OW training today is poor" based on what; Personal experience, reading about it here or what?

Just how does this help us learn from or understand the incident at Catalina?

 

[bsee65]

Bubble: I disagree 100%. Do we know that this instructor did not do all those things? We do not, so this thread is not the place for this discussion. It is a gross generalization that if the student had an issue, there is a training flaw. What makes knowing a skill at 3ft, 8ft, or 12ft the same as 100ft? It may make the student more confident, but certainly does not eliminate any possibility of panic. Looking at it another way: this was a certified diver and could have gone to the depth at which the incident took place without any supervision, and been within standards. Had they done the same thing, there would have been numerous comments about how the student should have taken an Advanced class before. IMO, this is strictly a standards and practices discussion about what should happen in OW and AOW.

Actually, the first report we got on this incident said it began at 65 fsw. That's a hair beyond standard for an OW diver. Part of the issue I have had with this particular discussion is the defensiveness and slight tweaking of things over time. You expect a correction or two to come in, but these seem to be protective of the instructor. I wonder about the accuracy of the facts reported now. 65fsw became 60fsw, so one might say that the diver never was beyond her prior training level. The difference between 60 and 65 is trivial in practice, but an attorney might spin higher responsibility onto the instructor once into the AOW depth range. Addditionally, what was initially reported as an OOA signal followed by an examination of the pressure gauge became an OOA signal followed by an instantaneous burst of speed. The former suggests that the instructor had an opportunity to take action, the latter that there was no chance.

To be clear, I wasn't there and wouldn't say that the instructor did anything wrong with either version of the events. The sudden crusade against any speculation and spawning of so many additional threads to generalize and distance discussion of potentially related issues, combined with these subtle corrections give the appearance of butt-covering whether it is intended or not. In particular, the spawning of a new thread for every single theory stifles the ability to connect the various speculations with each other in a way that would aid in proving or disproving them.

 

[Thalassamania]

OW card holders are Certified Divers and are making an effort to become better divers by taking an AOW class.

Will you stipulate that the term "certified" diver does have the same meaning in terms of skill and knowledge that it once did?

You made the general statement of "much OW training today is poor" based on what; Personal experience, reading about it here or what?

I think what he is saying is that training programs have been simplified and dumbed down. There is fair agreement to that/

Just how does this help us learn from or understand the incident at Catalina?

If the victim had a heart attack, it does not. If the victim panicked as a result of some otherwise trivial stimulus, everything.

 

[boulderjohn]

Actually, the first report we got on this incident said it began at 65 fsw. That's a hair beyond standard for an OW diver. Part of the issue I have had with this particular discussion is the defensiveness and slight tweaking of things over time. You expect a correction or two to come in, but these seem to be protective of the instructor. I wonder about the accuracy of the facts reported now. 65fsw became 60fsw, so one might say that the diver never was beyond her prior training level.

This was indeed part of the initial confusion, since some people mistakenly believed this was an OW class. It was not. It was an AOW class, and the dive the students was doing requires depths below 60 feet.