Catalina Diver died today w/ Instructor

[116fire]

My condolences to the friends and familly.

That said, Two points:

Ultimately, we all die from cardiac arrest.

The fact that his/her heart stopped says nothing unless the autopsy indicates that this was preciptating factor.

Speaking from experience (don't ask) a heart issue doesn't necessarily lead to panic. Panic and pain in the heart are about as related as peanut butter and the man on the moon.

R..

I couldn't disagree more, almost every life threatening cardiac/pulminary/stroke event I have witnessed there has been elements of panic, if not full on out and out panic--and I am talking on dry land, with expert EMS present.

From Yahoo health:
The most common symptom of a heart attack is severe chest pain.

• Many people describe the pain as discomfort, pressure, squeezing, or heaviness in the chest.
• People often put their fist to their chest when they describe the pain.
• The pain may spread down the left shoulder and arm and to other areas, such as the back, jaw, neck, or right arm.

Many people also have at least one other symptom, such as:

• Pain in the upper belly, often mistaken for heartburn.
• Sweating.
• Nausea and vomiting.
• Trouble breathing.
• A feeling that their heart is racing or pounding (palpitations).
• Feeling weak or very tired.
• Feeling dizzy or fainting.

Not everyone has the classic symptom of severe chest pain during a heart attack. Women, older adults, and people with diabetes are less likely to have severe chest pain and more likely to have shortness of breath, dizziness, weakness or fainting, and belly pain.



I dont care if you have cold blooded killer nerves of steel, if you have heart racing, shortness of breath underwater perhaps when you are at or near a personal limit, you will at least come close to panic.


Second Issue:
Life happens in real time, and while a little discussion of what would have been the thing to do is good in case it happens again...The short answer is we do the best we can in any situation presented with the facts at time T. Thing like would you risk death or extreme discomfort for another...Friend? Child? complete stranger? One can say I would blah blah blah, but it means nothing until it happens.
Would you give mouth to mouth to anybody? A complete stranger...a stranger who is a sickly looking street person...
Doesn't make you a bad person, just the way it is.
And if you don't know CPR and at least basic first aid, Shame Shame.




Panic: If you life is at stake you better not, and if it isn't, why panic.
Stay safe everybody.

 

[Thalassamania]

Panic exists to keep you alive ... on the surface. It mobilizes that body's resources for fight or flight. It is rather maladapted for use underwater, where thought and decisive action works better.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Some past objective stats from the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber with some relevancy to this latest fatality:

Initial Reported or Observed Problem of Divers Brought to the Catalina Hyperbaric Chamber (1995 - 2000):

Buoyancy Problem: 12%
Air Supply Problem: 11%
Buddy Problems: 10%
Decompression Problem: 6%
Equalizing Problem: 6%
Pain: 6%
Uncomfortable: 5%
Environmental Problem: 4%
Equipment Problem: 3%
Medical Problem: 3%
Regulator Problem: 3%
Rapid Ascent: 2%
Fatigue: 2%
Rebreather Problem: 2%
Mask Problem: 2%
Aspiration (water): 1%
Panic: 1%
No Problems Noted: approx. 10% occurrence

Quote: Divers Brought to the Catalina Chamber
--Did They Panic During the Dive?
Panicked: 33%
Did not Panic: 42%
Unknown: 25%

Quote: Divers Brought to the Catalina Chamber and
Suffering From AGE/Drowning/Near Drowning
--Did They Panic During the Dive?
Panicked: 51%
Did not Panic: 19%
Unknown: 30%

Quote:Cases from 1995 thru 2000
Of 154 Divers Brought to the Chamber:
76 (49%) Recompressed:
43 (57%) of which were DCS related
33 (43%) of which were Air Embolism related

78 (51%) Not Recompressed:
23 (29%) Rule Out AGE
23 (29%) Rule Out DCS
19 (24%) Near Drowning
9 (12%) Drowning
4 (5%) AGE/DCS Refused Treatment Against Medical Advice

19 (12%) Full Arrest --Fatalities

 

[deco_martini]

Panicked: 51%
Did not Panic: 19%
Unknown: 30%

I think that number could be even higher since the Unknown number is so large.

 

[Jax]

From Yahoo health:
The most common symptom of a heart attack is severe chest pain.

Not everyone has the classic symptom of severe chest pain during a heart attack. Women, older adults, and people with diabetes are less likely to have severe chest pain and more likely to have shortness of breath, dizziness, weakness or fainting, and belly pain.

Folks, according to a doctor friend, women are much less likey to know they are having a heart attact because of that second statement, above.

My mother-in-law had a heart attact in the freaking hospital, and it was not noticed by anybody because all she complained about was "I can't breath." Also having COPD, the comment lead to increased oxygen.

My point is . . . women can have a heart attack at depth, and panic because they cannot breath . . . It is very important that women educate themselves because our greater tolerance for pain will keep us from properly acting until it is too late.

My mother-in-law died, because no one knew she had a heart attack until it was too late to prevent the complications that led to her death. She "just" couldn't breath.

 

[drbill]

Unfortunately perception will shape how posts are regarded by their individual readers. As a participant in this discussion and also having received information directly (immediately after the incident) from some who were there, including the victims boyfriend, I know I probably read things differently than someone that is just reading the posts. I was confused by how some people came to the conclusions they did based on what had been stated.

Precisely why I refer to it as speculation.

I appreciate Dr. Bill's sensitivity for the instructor. I saw the pain in her face because of this event, and would not want to add to that in any way. That said, I did not read much negativity into the posts. Other than thinking "it doesn't say that" or "where did that come from?" regarding the information about the accident, I didn't see anything derogatory toward the instructor other than possible standards violation of a basic open water class. That was not the case and was corrected very quickly. Unlike many other S&I posts where I read about how the instructor should have done this or not done that, this one seemed to stay on track and not have any finger pointing. As should be, some questions were brought up and I think some good information was exchanged, so that perhaps this incident will serve some purpose.

The one about not wanting to dive on a boat where she might be DM'ing was probably the worst IMHO.

In part because the mods here did a good job of separating off threads that speculated on things not directly germane to this incident.

Because of this splitting off, it is important to recognize that much of the highly speculative information originally in this thread has been separated out into new threads, so a reading of the thread as it exists right now does NOT illustrate the complete sequence of posts.

 

[drbill]

Where do the facts of THIS incident lead to heart attack? That is very speculative, although certainly a possibility. Panic appears to be confirmed by direct observation, but the cause of that panic seems to be highly speculative.

 

[deco_martini]

the cause of that panic seems to be highly speculative.

Due to the nature of panic, won't this always be the case unless the person survives to tell what happened?

We can always speculate "narc'd, low vis, current, suit too was new and too tight/fitted, mask filled, diver was anxious before getting in" or other things that could contribute to the person breathing shallow due to anxiety or exertion; but we really can only guess what combination of possible factors pulled the panic trigger.

 

[merxlin]

>>>>>>>>The one about not wanting to dive on a boat where she might be DM'ing was probably the worst IMHO<<<<<<

Yeah, but I thought the immediate dogpile to quench that one was a great response from those that were active in the discussion. It was so out of line (despite the subsequent explaination) that I don't know if anyone would have taken it serious.

>>>>>>>>Because of this splitting off, it is important to recognize that much of the highly speculative information originally in this thread has been separated out into new threads, so a reading of the thread as it exists right now does NOT illustrate the complete sequence of posts.

True, It's probably time to put this to rest until any legitimate facts come in. I would like to hear if someone does come forward with first hand information.

 

[drbill]

Precisely (in response to deco martini, you "snuck" in between us Mike)... and that's why I feel such speculation belongs in a separate thread discussing possible causes of panic rather than a specific incident thread where it may have no relevance at all. The mods have done a good job of keeping these separate.

I was glad to hear the instructor will be teaching again soon.