Careless instructor or overthinking newbie

[Hojo in SC]

I too feel that you should get a refund so you can take the course from a proper instructor, and I think the instructor should be reported to PADI.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Several things wrong with this:

1. On the "deep" dive to 30 m, the instructor is required to DIRECTLY supervise you. They are outside standards if they leave you, or even you and a buddy, unsupervised.
2. You have to do a pool dive in a dry suit before using one in any open water dive, training or otherwise. (Well, the PADI professional can't supervise you in an open water dive in a dry suit unless you've done this.)
3. You asked for a refresher, you clearly didn't get it. You told them it was 2 years since you dove. PADI recommends retraining after 6 months of no diving, though I'm not sure that's a specific standard an instructor is bound to enforcing.

I'd report at least those first two items to PADI.

I have some sympathy for the shop on dry suit issues. Dry suits are tough to maintain, and tough to test on an individual. It's not uncommon for boots not to fit fins; the student has to then buy new fins to fit the dry suit boot. It's a pain, but has to be done. Still, the shop should have tested the fin on the boot before you went out. Leaks happen, and they should refund the rental cost of the suit in that case. Often times leaks are due to "user error." E.g., a zipper not quite done up all the way, or a neck seal not properly set. But sometimes it's a flaw in the suit that a prior renter didn't tell the shop about.

 

[Damselfish]

So which specialty dives were you supposedly doing in this AOW class?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I got OW certified five years ago and have done around 20 dives in warm places on holiday. I wanted to get more into local diving and signed up for the Advanced course. Since it was around two years since my last dive, I also paid for a refresher dive.

Definitely a good idea, as this "refresher" dive was also the opportunity to ensure your dry suit was a comfortable fit and that you had the appropriate amount of weight, that it was distributed properly, and that you could comfortably hover and fin. What I do is described here: Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed: How to weight properly, Part 3 - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI.

My only request was that I could try out diving in a drysuit for one of my adventure dives, and the dive shop told me I could do the whole course in drysuit, which was great. It turned out they only had three drysuits for renting though, and two of them would only fit men twice my size. The third one was still somewhat big on me, but the instructor assured me it wouldn't be an issue. He seemed very friendly and helpful while picking the gear for me to use in the following dives.

Oh it is an issue all right. When I last taught dry suit for a shop, students were often given improperly fitted dry suits, and yeah, it was a non starter. My students struggled. One was hopeless (not her fault) as she had a dry suit waaaay to big on her. We spent about 4 days just trying to get her comfortable. Then the shop got a decent suit that fit her well. We then slammed through the course.

Come dive day, and the attitude was a lot different. The instructor in general seemed like he was running late for dinner, and annoying things started happening.

If I'm teaching (in the morning typically), I tell my wife that I'll be home for dinner. Don't expect me for lunch (as I also like to eat with students afterwards for a debrief).

The dive boots I got from the dive shop were too big to fit in the foot pockets of my fins, so the instructor told me it was fine to just use the neoprene socks of the drysuit.

Shaking my head, but not unheard of. Sadly.

I didn't know how much weight I needed since most of my dives have been done in a shorty wetsuit,

That's entirely your instructor's responsibility to help you with as you have no experience with dry suits. The calculators sometimes work, but often are waaaaay off.

and didn't know that the 14kg weight belt the instructor handed me was way off

Oh good Lord.

until I sat securely on the bottom of the water with a fully inflated BCD (I'm a 60kg woman). I ended up going with 8kg, since the full BCD would be able to sorta keep me neutral at that weight.

Shaking my head.

I noticed that a fair amount of water was getting into the drysuit already at the surface, but when I told the instructor, he asked if I was cold and I told him I guess not. He was visibly annoyed at the delays already and just wanted to get on with the dives,

Instructor should have stopped there. A student's comfort is critical to learning. You are already stressed. The additional stress of a leak (and eventually becoming cold) is detrimental to your learning.

and I figured that he knew what he was doing.

If you ever learn to see how low the bar is for becoming an instructor, you'll see how wrong you were to have that assumption. You'd think a professional would be professional. Nope.

It turned out that that dive was both my refresher + my first Advanced course dive + my first ever dive in cold water + first dive in drysuit + first dive below 18m (we went to 30).

FFS

I'd told the instructor that I possibly had to do a slow descent since I've had trouble equalizing ear pressure in the past (I've since researched equalizing rather extensively and I think I have it all figured out now). He said that was no problem, but then proceeded to doing the exact thing I hoped he wouldn't. He did the fastest descent I've ever seen anyone do, and I tried keeping up as well as I could until my right ear was starting to hurt quite badly.

The Vasalva manuever is quite dangerous and shouldn't be used. Other equalization techniques require a slower descent.

I had no idea of the depth since I had no computer or even a depth gauge, the only instrument I had was air.

Wait, what?!?!? From PADI standards.

AOW: Equipment
As described in the General Standards and Procedures Guide, plus each diver has a dive knife/tool, a compass and a dive computer (or timing device and eRDPML/RDP Table).

General Standards and Procedures:
Equipment
Standard Diver Equipment
Make sure divers have, at a minimum:
1. Fins, mask and snorkel
2. Compressed gas cylinder and valve*
3. Buoyancy control device (BCD) with tank mount or
separate backpack, and low pressure infl ator*
4. Primary regulator and alternate air source*
* Exception: Using a registered rebreather is acceptable if course performance requirements can be met. Do not use rebreathers during PADI Discover Scuba Diving programs, PADI Scuba Diver, Open Water Diver or Instructor Development Courses.
5. Breathing gas monitoring device (e.g. submersible pressure gauge)
6. Depth monitoring device
7. Quick release weight system and weights (if necessary
for neutral buoyancy, or if required for skills practice)
8. Adequate exposure protection appropriate for local dive
conditions.
Note: The dry suit orientation requirement in this guide.
9. At least one audible emergency surface signaling device (whistle, air horn, etc.).
10. Dive computer or RDP (eRDPMLTM or Table)

We were descending along a slope though so I stopped for a while, totally alone because he didn't look at me once during the entire descent. I probably exceeded the one minute I should've waited before beginning the ascent on my own, but by the time he came back looking for me, my ear was sort of ok so we continued down to 30m.

Shaking my head.

By then I started to really feel the cold, and had to thumb the dive since my feet were numb and my whole body started shaking. We were swimming against the current on the way back, and my ankles were seriously hurting from using neoprene socks in open heel fins. I will never do that again. I doubted a couple of times if I'd even be able to make it back on my own, because I felt exhausted, ice cold and in pain. I did manage though, and could just barely stagger out of the water with the drysuit being totally flooded all the way up to the neck. We called it a day since I was simply way too cold to continue.

I'm actually getting angry here.

The day after, he brought another drysuit, and it leaked as well. Not quite as bad, only so that the legs were full of water. But again, I thumbed the dive from my feet going numb and the instructor shrugged and congratulated me on passing the course.

AOW is considered by many to be a participation trophy that you purchase. As long as you don't drown, you're an AOW after.

I feel like I did learn a lot of things, but they were for the wrong reasons and they were not the things I had hoped for. I got two dives in total. The things I'll be taking with me from this are:
1. Own my own equipment. Then I'm responsible for it, and I'll know how it works and that it works.
2. Be more picky with the dive shops and instructors I deal with.
3. Don't have unlimited trust in anyone. I'll admit that I've been naïve in regards to the abilities of instructors and their willingness to keep me safe.
4. Take more responsibility for myself when diving. I'm completely aware of my own inexperience, but if someone wants to do something I think is unsafe, I'm going to say no, regardless of their supposed expertise. If someone does a kamikaze descent when my ears hurt, I'm going to simply thumb the dive.

I think #2 includes many instructors are idiots/negligent. So I think you've got it covered.

My primary question here is, where does his responsibility as an instructor end, and where does mine as an independent diver begin?
He knew I was fairly inexperienced, he knew I'd never tried diving in cold water or tried a drysuit on, never gone below 18m, and two years since my last dive. I feel like I was thrown into the deep end, but when should I have drawn the line here? Am I wrong in feeling very disappointed about this course?

He was incredibly negligent and shouldn't be teaching. You can report him, but I guarantee you, nothing will happen. He generates income for the agency, remember?

I'd suggest taking GUE fundies next: GUE Fundamentals. I don't know where you are in Scandanavia, but there are GUE instructors in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. It won't be a clown show like you just experienced.

 

[SlugLife]

I'm glad you're safe, that story is quite similar to another story where a woman was massively overweighted, inexperienced with a drysuit and died.

A scuba-instructor should have known you wouldn't be cold in a drysuit at or above the surface, it's once you get in the water and start getting deeper. where it becomes a problem.

It sounds like your instructor "passing" you was the equivalent of you paying for a card saying "Advanced open water" but not an education. I'd ask for a refund, and failing that possibly do a charge-back with your bank.

@wetb4igetinthewater's comment is pretty much spot on, so I won't repeat it. As is what everyone else has posted so far.

 

[yle]

I've been very unsure if I should make this thread or not, but I figure it might at least clarify a few things for me. I did my PADI Advanced OW course not so long ago, and it was significantly below the standard I'm used to when diving, and I don't think I really learned any of the things I was hoping to.

Just my opinion: you have described complete dereliction of duty by the instructor and dive shop in this situation. And I mean dereliction of a mind-numbing level. Avoid these people in the future.

 

[yle]

AOW is considered by many to be a participation trophy that you purchase. As long as you don't drown, you're an AOW after.

I think your use of "many" could use some clarification. Certainly the "many" you refer to includes lazy, jaded, narcissistic and/or sociopathic instructors.

But there are also many instructors that understand the value that they can bring to an AOW class by treating their students, and the subject matter, with the proper respect.

 

[yle]

He was incredibly negligent and shouldn't be teaching.

True

You can report him,

Also true

but I guarantee you, nothing will happen

Untrue. How can you "guarantee" this? It's sad that you would even make this statement as it sounds petulant and reduces the effectiveness of the rest of your otherwise useful feedback. Keep in mind this thread should be about helping the OP become a better diver, and not about your opinions of an agency.

He generates income for the agency, remember?

Likely untrue. If he causes problems, the costs to the agency involved with addressing and resolving those problems likely far exceed the revenue the agency receives from the instructor. For this reason, instructors like this cause losses, both monetary and in reputation, for the agency.

I'd suggest taking GUE fundies next: GUE Fundamentals....It won't be a clown show like you just experienced.

The "clown show" was the fault of the instructor and dive shop, not the agency. I know you know this. As wonderful as GUE is (so I've heard), it isn't the answer to all scuba related problems, and it's irresponsible to suggest otherwise to impressionable newish divers.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Untrue. How can you "guarantee" this? It's sad that you would even make this statement as it sounds petulant and reduces the effectiveness of the rest of your otherwise useful feedback. Keep in mind this thread should be about helping the OP become a better diver, and not about your opinions of an agency.

Want to place a wager on this? I've seen such behavior (and worse) being reported by dive pros about other dive pros in various agenices. Never anything came of it.

Likely untrue. If he causes problems, the costs to the agency involved with addressing and resolving those problems likely far exceed the revenue the agency receives from the instructor. For this reason, instructors like this cause losses, both monetary and in reputation, for the agency.

Who says the agency does anything? Is there a lawsuit here?

The "clown show" was the fault of the instructor and dive shop, not the agency. I know you know this. As wonderful as GUE is (so I've heard), it isn't the answer to all scuba related problems, and it's irresponsible to suggest otherwise to impressionable newish divers.

I never said it was the agency. You're projecting. There are excellent instructors found in every agency. There are a lot of bad ones too. The quality control of GUE is pretty darn good. Does that mean that there will always be a teaching style/effectiveness match? No, but you won't see stuff like this at GUE. Please note, I'm not a GUE instructor, and I never will be a GUE instructor. I just point people in the direction of quality training. As I don't know any good non-GUE instructors in Scandanavia, so my recommendation stands. Its a fair bit of work for a new diver to flush out who is good and who isn't by themselves. And like I was told before I took fundies "You don't have to drink the Kool Aid, just go for the skills."

My stand by my advice. Take fundies and you'll agree. But since you have no experience, your objection is based on ignorance.

 

[Brett Hatch]

The behavior described in post #1 is f***ing disgusting. If the picture painted is remotely accurate, then the instructor should be fired, his certifications revoked, and your money returned. I would strongly encourage to you to speak to the owner of the shop and whichever agency this garbage instructor is associated with.

And on a brighter note, I'd also encourage you to find some actually decent folks to dive with in your local area. Diving in cold water in a drysuit is easy, it just takes a suit that actually fits, a couple of pointers, and some practice. I hope this experience has not turned you off completely, and that you continue to pursue diving in your area with some competent, patient, and friendly local divers. Best of luck.