Canon vs Nikon

[jbaptis]

Nah, the most expensive is motorcycling for the average person. H-D 30K dollars.

Now on this I DO know something about (been motorcycling for more than 25 years) and I couldn't agree more. But since you live in BMW territory, why spending so much on a HD? (Somebody may kick me out of this forum with that one!:evil

 

[Mariozi]

But it seems like you are doing what allot of sales guys do and saying that the dslr the best picture. No need for anything else. Which is not the case.

No sales pitch really, both systems have pros and cons.
But there are a lot of myths out there that need to be dispelled.
Learning curve, Fisheye fright and WB importance are just a few.

 

[shoturtle]

Now on this I DO know something about (been motorcycling for more than 25 years) and I couldn't agree more. But since you live in BMW territory, why spending so much on a HD? (Somebody may kick me out of this forum with that one!:evil

I have a BMW also, I have 4 motorcycles, so I know for the average person, motorcycles are a very expensive hobby.

 

[shoturtle]

No sales pitch really, both systems have pros and cons.
But there are a lot of myths out there that need to be dispelled.
Learning curve, Fisheye fright and WB importance are just a few.

I am just saying that there are more to learn on a dslr then a great bridge camera like the g10. That is not a myth. But a good book like green lantern will teach you what you need to know, but it just take a little bit of time.

 

[Mariozi]

I am just saying that there are more to learn on a dslr then a great bridge camera like the g10. That is not a myth. But a good book like green lantern will teach you what you need to know, but it just take a little bit of time.

That is exactly where we disagree.
The experience I have with my students is quite the opposite.
The way to shoot a G11 is exactly the same to shoot a D300.
The main differences are price tag, size, shutter lag, lens choices, versatility (like changing lenses uw).
I also think you are MUCH better with a good instructor than a good library...
In my experience there are some crucial steps that I know I need to be underwater with my student... Example: it is amazing, but no matter how much you say "get closer, shoot up" most students will never get how close is close. But once I drag their housings into position and tell them to look through the viewfinder, they get it instantaneously!

 

[shoturtle]

The is a big difference between the D300 ability in action the the G11 can not match, on something that is stationary then it is pretty close, but if you start lowing the light and adding action. The G11 really falls off. You can not get high action indoors with the g11 vs the D300. That is why their is the big difference in price. Try taking an indoor basketball game, with the g11 vs the D300. And there is no way you tell me that they are the same.

I would not judge a camera on just one aspect, of UW photo. They are design to do so much more.

I have been shooting for over 25 years, with film for a very long. And I have just help a friend switch from bridge to a dslr, and there were couple more thing to learn. In couple of weeks of practicing he got it down. But it just a little bit of time. So there is a bit more of a learning curve. And my brother just went for a point and shoot to a pentax K-x and it is way more for him to learn. And he is still ready and trying it out. So it does have a learning curve, so that is not a myth.

 

[Mariozi]

I never said they are the same, otherwise I would be shooting with a compact.
There is more to learn on a DSLR, but considering the advanced compacts we have today, it is just a bit more when compared to what we had on film. And most of my arguments are not "UW ONLY".
You have experience with film. Back then there really was a canyon between compacts and SLRs. And the SLR learning curve was a big arc.
But nowadays someone with absolutely no photographic experience can get a DSLR, with a good instructor, and get good images with relative ease. He will have to learn a bit more, but at this beginner stage it is just that, just a bit more, but he will run through it with ease the "Oh my God SLR learning curve" was something from the film era. Put two beginners together, zero experience, one with a G11 and another with a D300 (both systems with accessories) through an underwater photography course oriented to their equipments and they would "graduate" at the same time, and I dare to say the DSLR guy would have a better chance of getting good pictures.

 

[Mariozi]

This is something that as an uwphoto instructor, I struggled with for a long time after we went digital.

I was formed by the "CMAS school" very thorough courses, it would take a week, several pool sessions, several dive sessions... we would do everything, from checking strobes power to creating GN tables, even developing. Which is a BIG contrast to PADI DUP... both have pros and cons, PADI DUP while lacking in photography knowledge IMHO brings a lot of people to uwphoto.

When digital came to be I was kinda of locked in the middle of these things, trying to create something fast like the digital technology, but with content like film... I ended up in a place where there is no CMAS, so I was free to experiment with any format I liked. And I ended up with several courses that I teach on a regular base.

1) Basic UWP for Compacts - All the basics for someone with a compact + strobes, adapters etc... the full uwphoto package. I removed all the DSLR only knowledge from this course, it is straight to the point on compact knowhow.
2) Intro to DSLR UWP - Which is the same beginner package but for DSLR users, people who want to start in uwphoto with a DSLR. All info on compact photography is removed, it is a DSLR ONLY course.
3) DSLR Upgrade Course - a quick cheap course for someone who already did a Basic UWP for Compacts into DSLR shooting, just a quick review and all the DSLR info.
4) Advanced DSLR UWPhoto - it is a quick review, a deeper theoretical course more cientificaly into photography than we explore, subjects as super-macro, advanced lighting techniques, BW, multiple exposures, HDR underwater, use of models, imaging critique, championships organization...

From the first two (that I teach most) they have the exact same classroom hours and pool sessions/dives. And most importantly the exact same success rate... maybe an even better success rate on the DSLR one because most often than not the DSLR students are better equipped accessory-wise. But almost all Compact students get really close to their "equipment limit" at the end of the course, where they can choose a compact upgrade or an accessory investment...

I found this new way to teach to be really nice with the digital age... much better for my students and much more enjoyable to me. The pool sessions a 3h pool session fully-equipped is really interesting, and I think is a crucial part of the success of this approach.

 

[shoturtle]

Then you should know that there is a bit more to a dslr stuff to know about a dslr then to a bridge camera and a bridge camera over a point and shoot. If not all you are doing is giving a sale pitch that I see sales guys at stores give would be buyers of dslr saying they will get better pictures if they get the better camera right away. You can learn a dslr in about a month if you have a good book. a bridge camera is about 2 week, and a p&s is a no brainer.

But answer my question, will the G11 in an indoor basketball game perform like the D300. Yes or No. It a simple question.

 

[jbaptis]

Dear Mariozi and shoturtle,
I initially thought I would see Nikon and Canon fans at each others’ throats with my post, but never anticipated this type of discussion.
Nevertheless, I think my mind is pretty much made up. I went to four different local photography stores (and two specifically UW) to get an idea of the prices for the lenses advised here in the various posts, and…
Whoa!! The whole thing will easily escalate to 5.000 Euros (with a decent housing and the second strobe I will need, sooner than later). Ouch! At this stage of my progress, I’d rather spend that kind of money diving in different kinds of UW paradises.
On the other hand,

Dear Maddog59,
I’ve noticed in your signature that even with all your experience in diving and UWPhotography you just have the equipment I was originally aiming at (Canon G10, Patima Housing, 2 x Inon Z240-4 Strobes with sync cable) and of which I am only missing the second strobe, the sync cables and the Patima.
Now that’s a lot less money and a lot of freedom of choice while UW.

I believe this is not the end of it, since I really want to improve my photographer skills (btw, I am also of the CMAS school and I think I had an excellent instructor) including topside and naturally I will upgrade to DSLR, but not just yet.

I can’t thank you guys enough for your interest and help.