Canoe outrigger project

[2airishuman]

Kayaks are not just in vogue without reason, they are far superior in most uses (for diving and fishing) to a canoe except perhaps in flat water. The SOT kayak is more seaworthy and self bailing and is to some degree, unsinkable (yes and no, it depends). And the rotomolded one piece construction, while somewhat heavy, takes the beating of heavy (dive) equipment and abusive use and shrugs it off.

Don't get me wrong -- I like kayaks, I paddle kayaks, they're great fun, they have their advantages. For serious use by serious paddlers the main tradeoff as I see it is that kayaks are somewhat faster, more seaworthy, and better handling in the water, while canoes are easier to handle on land and better able to carry cargo of arbitrary shape and size. Land manners are no small thing since many launch sites are unimproved, or some distance from nearest parking, or involve stairs or steep trails, or some combination of these. I think the popularity of kayaks has much to do with the relative ease of learning and the availability of low-cost rotomolded boats.

Anyway, this is canoe country (the chains of small lakes in the BWCA and elsewhere are not readily traversed in kayaks, though people try). I have a canoe, don't have a kayak, and am trying to make the most of the resources I have. This may be a fools errand, but given the launch sites around here I'm not sure a kayak (well, two of them, for a buddy team) is the right answer either.

I'll report back with results in a couple of months.

 

[MB]

The intent is to remove the outrigger and keep it in the canoe while running, and deploy it when needed.

Might be worth re-thinking this. My tendency would be to remove the amas only for transit on and off the car. Difficult entries are usually easier with the wider footprint, and I can't envision when running without the ama would be preferable to running with it (unless you are moving through narrow, swift water). And the ama would allow you to have lashing space for stowing and carrying your kit, weights, etc.

BTW - This is a spectacular idea!

 

[fjpatrum]

Interesting, my experience with land portage of kayaks and canoes is exactly opposite of yours. I have no problem carrying a kayak by myself, even my 19' 7" long one(admittedly not a big rubbermaid boat) whereas I always need help carrying a canoe of anything big enough to handle 2 full-sized adults. I haven't noticed a huge difference in weight between the two (much more limited canoe experience) since the canoes tend to be so much wider. I will say, though, I've gone to skin on frame boats and those are wonderful. My 17 footer weighs in at about 20 pounds.

All that said, I think canoes definitely have a place where kayaks do not and vice versa. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for this project.

 

[Nemrod]

Thing is you guys are comparing apples and oranges. I am hopeful the OP will find success but lightweight carbon/kevler canoes or like fjpatrum's skin on frame kayak are nothing like a single piece rotomolded sot kayak. They are kind of ugly, kind of heavy, awfully durable and able to take having SCUBA tanks dropped on them, and drug across the gunwales, weight belts dropped, spear guns poking them etc. You can drag them across the sand (or worse) and while it does scuff them if it really bothers you get a propane torch and flame them back smooth (carefully). And then there is price, one can purchase a OK or similar kayak under a $1,000 dollars (or even a lot less) and they come in bright, garish, funky do not run over me please colors. And, they are actually, a practical and relatively easy way to access sites that are out of reach of a typical shore dive. I would say, the practical range, is three miles out and three miles back or less, less being preferable.

I think perhaps it is just older age (not old age) but I find myself less and less willing to spend tons of time developing solutions to problems where there are already practical solutions just to go to any expense to save a dollar. Not to mention my time.

I have a 14 foot plastic canoe, it is at least as heavy as any of my three sot kayaks and every bit as unwieldy to handle. It has it's purposes but SCUBA is not one of them. Actually my wife and I bought the canoe so our two (RIP) collie dogs could enjoy taking a ride. They liked being on the water, just not in it. Poor things. The canoe has not seen any use since their passing as the kayaks are so much better for everything and if they are not, then it is time to call out the Whaler.

N

 

[fjpatrum]

@Nemrod, for the record my wood and fiberglass boat is far more durable than any plastic boat I've ever seen and, with the right skin, skin on frame boats will "drag" (though I'm not sure why you'd want to since they're so light) over pretty much any surface that isn't an oyster bed. Most will even drag over oyster beds if they aren't fully loaded. Either way both are far more easily repaired than a plastic boat other than the surface scratches you mentioned in your post.

Comments comparing differing experiences aside, you're overlooking the fact that OP already has a boat. While it's nice to be able to spend "under $1000", it's not practical for everyone. Some people don't have space to store multiple boats. Some don't have the money to buy (or build) multiple boats. The list of reasons against buying a new/different solution are endless. By the way, you can get stitch and glue wood and fiberglass boat kits starting around $700 and that's 10x more than I paid for any one of my multiple skin on frame boats. Either option also can be designed and built as a SOT.

OP already has a boat, suitable for the other uses he has for it (not likely the case for a SOT kayak) that can be easily modified/added to for the times when he wants to dive from it. IS it the solution for every problem? No. It is a solution for his problem.

Is it the best diving choice overall? Maybe, maybe not. Again, we could debate that until the cows come home, grow old and die. It is the choice he's decided to go with, for his own reasons. Being DIY at heart, I like the concept he's come up with and am looking forward to seeing it executed. Especially since I've designed a couple of outriggers in my time for my kids to attach their boats to mine or to just give their boats extra stability when they're really young or whatever. Seeing new options is always good.

 

[Nemrod]

fjpatrum, I read what you say. I wished you guys success. It sounds like a PVC outrigger might be the easiest solution to providing some needed stability with the outrigger poles clamped to the thwarts. Still do not understand how he is planning to re-enter but perhaps the area will allow him to stand on the bottom and simply hop in. Some of those "rivers" in Florida are private property to the water edge so this limits one to entering and exiting for that matter from the water so as to avoid confrontations with often rather difficult property owners. But if he can beach it without any trouble like that then he has it all pretty easy to work with the canoe.

On the thwarts, maybe a piece of PVC and drill and attach to the top of the thwarts, from the ID. Then size the outrigger tubes (aluminum tubing) to slide into the PVC tubes attached atop the thwarts. Then install the parts in assembly and cross drill for a 1/4 inch push/hitch pin to lock them in place? On the outrigger side, something similar, that way it could be disassembled and stowed if not needed in passage. Just trying to think of a way to do it that does not involve a large contraption or much modification of a nice boat.

The cross braces, thwarts, on my canoe are wooden, not sure on the OP's canoe but if not then the cross braces that support the seats might work for outrigger support. I have drilling holes but I am not much into duct tape or tie straps either.

I notice I said my canoe was 14 feet, actually it is 16 feet and a bit. Just for accuracy. Had a lot of fun with it. Hope you both have fun and success with your plans.

N

 

[2airishuman]

I've started construction but it's on hold due to the fact that I'm Florida for a week of diving.

Here's a more detailed plan and a photo of the block where the arms will attach, showing the locating dowels.

.

 

[2airishuman]

You might look into using a piece of capped pvc pipe in lieu of the wood. You would get a better float to weight ratio.

I'm building with the tire tube option. I don't have a photo, unfortunately, but I'm pleased with the results. I'm using a snowmobile trailer tire tube, which is small in outer diameter but fairly large in volume. With the wood frame it weighs around 10 pounds, and provides about 100 pounds of flotation. I like the shape because it is less prone to catching on anything, gear, swimmers, docks, etc.

An innertube, unless very heavy weight, isn't going to be stable enough when you're trying to get in and out of the boat. Especially if you don't leave it as an intact ring. Think of how a pool noodle bends in the middle when you put weight on it and you'll start to envision the problem with an innertube. A PVC piece will have the rigidity you need to use it as an extra step when getting back in from the water and will be more than sufficient with flotation. You could make it even a 4 inch piece of PVC but that would start to interfere with paddle clearance when not deployed, I think.

Not cutting the tube, using the whole ring.

(This all assumes you mean to get into the boat from the outrigger side- using it like a ladder- rather than using the stirrup on the opposite side. If that's your intent then an innertube may be sufficient. I'd still opt for the PVC, personally, but at that point I don't know that it would be necessary.)

The idea for boarding is to suspend one or two stirrups on a rope or strap from the outrigger arm right at the point where it meets the canoe. That way the diver can grip the gunwale and the outrigger, climb with their feet in the stirrups, and swing a leg over into the boat.

for the record my wood and fiberglass boat is far more durable than any plastic boat I've ever seen and, with the right skin, skin on frame boats will "drag" (though I'm not sure why you'd want to since they're so light) over pretty much any surface that isn't an oyster bed. Most will even drag over oyster beds if they aren't fully loaded. Either way both are far more easily repaired than a plastic boat other than the surface scratches you mentioned in your post.

A well made boat of cedar strips or fiberglass is a joy in and out of the water compared to rotomolded plastic. This is true of kayaks and canoes alike.

Comments comparing differing experiences aside, you're overlooking the fact that OP already has a boat. While it's nice to be able to spend "under $1000", it's not practical for everyone. Some people don't have space to store multiple boats. Some don't have the money to buy (or build) multiple boats. The list of reasons against buying a new/different solution are endless. By the way, you can get stitch and glue wood and fiberglass boat kits starting around $700 and that's 10x more than I paid for any one of my multiple skin on frame boats. Either option also can be designed and built as a SOT.

OP already has a boat, suitable for the other uses he has for it (not likely the case for a SOT kayak) that can be easily modified/added to for the times when he wants to dive from it. IS it the solution for every problem? No. It is a solution for his problem.

Thanks, fjpatrum, you speak to my situation on a number of points. Keep in mind that a 17' canoe carries two people plus gear, so the comparison is between what I have now and purchasing two kayaks, since as far as I know, kayaks that will comfortably carry two divers and gear are not available. Devoting the money and space to two additional boats is not a lifestyle choice I wish to make.

fjpatrum, I read what you say. I wished you guys success. It sounds like a PVC outrigger might be the easiest solution to providing some needed stability with the outrigger poles clamped to the thwarts. Still do not understand how he is planning to re-enter but perhaps the area will allow him to stand on the bottom and simply hop in. Some of those "rivers" in Florida are private property to the water edge so this limits one to entering and exiting for that matter from the water so as to avoid confrontations with often rather difficult property owners. But if he can beach it without any trouble like that then he has it all pretty easy to work with the canoe.

I'm using the boat in Minnesota (not Florida), and yes, many of the rivers here do have private ownership to the water's edge in many places and there do exist situations where a shallow entry is all that's necessary. As I outlined above, though, I'm envisioning my setup as being workable for deep water as well.

On the thwarts, maybe a piece of PVC and drill and attach to the top of the thwarts, from the ID. Then size the outrigger tubes (aluminum tubing) to slide into the PVC tubes attached atop the thwarts. Then install the parts in assembly and cross drill for a 1/4 inch push/hitch pin to lock them in place? On the outrigger side, something similar, that way it could be disassembled and stowed if not needed in passage. Just trying to think of a way to do it that does not involve a large contraption or much modification of a nice boat.

I think I can just lash it down to the yoke on both sides, next the gunwales, with the arms fixed in place laterally as well as fore to aft by the blocks in the photo upthread.

I notice I said my canoe was 14 feet, actually it is 16 feet and a bit. Just for accuracy. Had a lot of fun with it. Hope you both have fun and success with your plans.
N

Thanks, mine is 17' as I noted upthread, good sized for two people.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[2airishuman]

Progress. I still have to add a brace or two, drill some holes, and put on some spar varnish.

 

[fjpatrum]

That is significantly longer than I imagined. That's going to be a bear to stow when not in use! Looks good though.