Can you just hold your nose?

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I am intrigued by the disconnect between the pool and OW experiences. Out of curiosity, was there a big difference in water temperature?
Yes- the open water dives were done in about 60 degree water, colder under the thermocline, but we did skills above the thermocline and just went under for 'exploration'. This was in 7 mm wetsuits, but it was warm enough to not wear hood/gloves. I think the biggest issue is I feel like I can't control the situation. In the pool, I'm on the bottom, and I know I can get to the surface easily. If I'm not in control of the situation, I think my brain tells me not to change the variables- I have my mask on and things are good. Why take it off?

Thank you for all your comments. I'm happy to say I can take my regulator out of my mouth without anxiety now (and that was a major issue at first)- so I'm looking to kick this as well. I think just knowing that if I totally lost my mask, I could hold my nose while my buddy and I ascended just psychologically makes me feel better that I can deal with it. Without a doubt, I'm going to continue to practice full floods and removal/replace though.

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 11:11 AM ----------

I'll be honest, when someone says "I've never noticed a difference" in visibility underwater with or without a mask... I sort of have to wonder how accurate their assesment of anything else might be.

That was in reference to losing visibility. I have about the same range of visibility with a mask and without one. Clarity is not as good in the distance- but I can still see as far. Since my watch is on my wrist, and I already need it close to my face to read regardless, it can still be read.
 
I've practiced fully flooding my mask and clearing it, and every time, I've been scared, but manage to do it.

I suggest, strongly, that you go to a swimming pool with a friend and do the following:
- jump into a pool that's 25 meters / 82 ft long
- do a breath hold dive end-to-end (no mask, no tanks, nothing)
- it's not important to reach the other end. It's more important to relax and enjoy the weightlessness and quietness.
- repeat ten times with two minute intervals
- there's a mental boundary only. Anyone can do it, once one relaxes

Suddenly you will notice that you can spend a minute or two submerged, without breathing, feeling relaxed, without a mask.

Once you have done this a few times you will realize that having a regulator, and breathing, but having no mask... is really not a problem, and you can have an underwater pizza while your buddy swims to the shore and back to fetch you a mask.

I have spent A LOT OF TIME under water without a mask. The view gets very blurry, but no, the sea won't flow into my lungs. If I turn upside down, then some water enters my nose, and that does feels awkward, but I haven't drowned yet. If you swim in a normal belly down position, then water will not enter your nose. If you turn around (belly up) then you need to hold your nose.

It's not healthy to hold ones breath while ascending. This may cause a burst lung, and hence shorten your misery on earth. This may be one of the reasons why you are not allowed to hold your nose.
 
Suddenly you will notice that you can spend a minute or two submerged, without breathing, feeling relaxed, without a mask.

Holding my breath under water without a mask is no problem at all. I'm a good swimmer. I can swim a 25 meter pool under water if I get a good push. The problem is that I can't hold my breath. The regulator makes a huge difference.
 
"If my mask were kicked off, is there any reason I can't just hold my nose?"

No. There is none. You can hold your nose as much as you ever want.

The only thing to be wary of is ascending while not letting the expanding air out of your lungs.
Anyone with a liability insurance will absolutely deny you all nose holding, lip squeezing, and the like.
 
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I will say that what you are describing about the mask skills is what I call a "rattle". We all have them -- the things we just don't like. Some people have trouble coping with not having a regulator in their mouth all the time. Some don't do well in low viz. Some can't take a mask off.

Whatever the "rattle" is that you have, ignoring it is the wrong answer. Avoiding doing something because you aren't good at it will never result in being better at it -- and when the day comes when you NEED that skill, you'll be worse off than you were to begin with. So if mask skills bother you, do them all the time. Get a membership in a local pool and go swim laps with a snorkel and no mask. If cold water is what bothers you, do what a friend of mine did -- fill your sink with cold water, dump some ice cubes in it, and put your face in it!

There is a solution to almost everything that can happen to you underwater except panic. For this reason, holding panic at bay should be the primary goal of all training and practice, and that means improving anything that raises your level of anxiety, so that you can deal with all reasonably anticipated problems calmly. You can do it!
This is so true! Every little thing that has been one of my " rattles" has come back to bite me in some way or another. Nothing really big or terrible but enough that I could see a huge possibility of future issues. Mask problems-I had an uncontrolled ascent because I took too big of an inhalation while clearing my mask due to discomfort with the skill one time. I also had an issue with my mask flooding once at Catalina, when I hadn't dived cold water in years. It caused me to come unglued and I really had to "stop,breathe and calm down" before I could concentrate on fixing the issue, which was that my hood was getting under the mask.
Poor vis- one day in the lake, vis was nearly zero and I got vertigo on a descent. Creepy feeling and I was not happy. Took some regrouping and I found out that I needed to work on low-vis skills.
Cold water in the face, well, obviously, when my mask flooded while at Catalina that first time, cold water was a big issue. I hadn't dived in cold water for about 12 years and it was unnerving. Solution-more cold water diving.
Avoidance of diving issues cannot be a solution. Diving is unnatural. Any problems you encounter with basic OW skills while diving must be solved. Those skills are taught for a very good reason. You must be able to master and continue to master those particular skills all along the journey we call diving. Otherwise, you will find diving isn't fun or worse,dangerous. Everything that is taught is basic OW is basically all that you need. Sure, you might need to learn better ascents,descents, more about decompression,deco methods, etc, if you want to become a technical diver. But, the basics are all there in an OW class. It's all just a matter of refinement and practice. Once those skills are there, you need to continue practicing because anything that isn't practiced can be lost. Since we don't have gills, we must practice and develop muscle memory of all the basics.

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 10:20 AM ----------

I basically freaked out any time I had to remove the regulator from my mouth. The class moved way too fast for me and there were times I felt unsafe and truly scared (which resulted in above water panic attacks and hyperventilating, and bolting to the surface a number of times; at least I remembered to exhale). I did all the skills and passed the portion of the class, but asked to go back and repeat the confined water dives, which thankfully the shop allowed me (I think they were glad I asked, actually. I would have to have been delusional to think I was ready for OW. I don't really understand why they passed me. One other woman and a kid did not pass, so it's not like it was automatic.). Things went better the second time around, my only problem came from an octo that leaked horribly and I bolted; and OW dives were non-eventful, except for refusing to take my mask off (which I did eventually do).
When you go on your trip, I'd suggest taking a refresher or "discover local diving" to refresh you and get a warm-up. Since you have just certified and it will have been months since your last dive, you're liable to be rusty. The other option would be to take peak performance buoyancy ( an excellent class when well taught) or advanced OW. Either way, a day or three with an instructor would be a great idea. Sounds like you were marginally ready to be signed off with a full OW cert. From the sounds of it, you might have been a good case for PADI's Scuba Diver certification, which requires a professional to dive with you at all times until passed for full OW.

No matter what you do, I highly recommend that next spring, when local diving becomes possible, that you become intimate with your local mud hole. The more you dive, the better you will be and the more comfortable you will become.
Have you ever read TSandM's blog? You would probably get a big kick out of it and maybe not feel so bad about your own class. She's a technical and cave diver now,btw!

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 10:25 AM ----------

I'm thinking of swimming in a lake. I haven't tried reading my computer under water without a mask (see: don't like to be without mask while on scuba) but I know for certain I can read the settings on my underwater camera. I swim with contacts in. I've never lost one. My prescription is signifigant, but for distance.
.
Please ditch the camera for about the next 25 dives. Please!

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 10:36 AM ----------

The community pools close at Labor day. I'm not sure if I can get a day pass at the University pool or not. But it sounds like snorkel + sink first.
There is almost always a place that the Masters Swim team will practice, unless you live in a tiny town, which I understand, having gone to college in Iowa. Actually, the Masters Swim team is quite reasonably priced and could be a good place to not only get into the pool but get lots of water comfort,too. Almost every town has one, if you're interested. You don't have to compete or even be a good swimmer to join. They're very relaxed with requirements.
Also, some places have lap swimming, even though they say they are closed. That's how our swimming pool is here. It says its closed on July 27th ( here in AZ of all places!) yet its open all winter). Do you have an LAFitness, 24 Hour Fitness or Lifetime Fitness?
 
"If my mask were kicked off, is there any reason I can't just hold my nose?"

No. There is none. You can hold your nose as much as you ever want.

The only thing to be wary of is ascending while not letting the expanding air out of your lungs.
Anyone with a liability insurance will absolutely deny you all nose holding, lip squeezing, and the like.

_______________
U.S. disclaimer: if you die, it's your problem. Don't blame it on me.

But does holding my nose promote lung expansion? That is what I am trying to find out with this post. Is there an actual reason to not hold the nose. I mean, aren't I suppose to exhale through my mouth?

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 12:55 PM ----------

Please ditch the camera for about the next 25 dives. Please!


I don't scuba with the camera. I've used it while swimming. You don't need a regulator or snorkel to use a camera underwater.


Thanks for the rest of the advice. I work near an indoor swimming pool- but I am not sure how expensive access is, so I'm checking into it. Most pools are closed because they are outside.

I will be diving with an instructor for the trip, it's Cozumel, so dives are required to have guides, and the one I chose is a master instructor. I've also asked to have a private DM the first days too if she thinks she cannot give me attention due to the make-up of the boat.



 
But does holding my nose promote lung expansion? That is what I am trying to find out with this post. Is there an actual reason to not hold the nose. I mean, aren't I suppose to exhale through my mouth?
Holding your nose DOES NOT promote lung expansion, as long as you breathe in and out through your mouth. That is why it can be said that there is no physiologic reason not to hold your nose. If you can comfortably hold your nose, and breathe in and out, while swimming / ascending [e.g. walk and chew gum at the same time :)], you will be fine.
 
But does holding my nose promote lung expansion?

Of course not. The only thing that promotes lung expansion is: not breathing out while ascending.

You may choose to exhale through your nose or through your mouth.
The only thing that matters is that you let the expanding air out.

Some people may not be able to exhale while holding their nose(?).
That might be a problem.
 
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You are actually one step ahead of my ex wife. She could not flood her mask or remove it. She passed all other skills but could not get certified. Since you were able to accomplish these skills you only need to work on your comfort level. I used to have my kids remove their mask, clean it and put it back on at the end of our dive while we were under the boat. In a short time they were good at ditching and dawning all their gear. Just keep practicing until it's second nature. Adventure-Ocean
 
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