Can you breathe from an Argon first stage?

[kathydee]

My experience with scuba is somehow limited, but one thing I have learned from mountaneering is that simple, cheap, rugged and old-school stuff is generally safer and less likely to die on you than the fancy stuff that innovative brands then to offer. I was wondering is the same is true for scuba gear.

Main purpose of the question is curiosity.Thanks for your answers

But keeping that in mind, from a rock climbers stand point - just cause the old timers used hemp rope, and it's cheaper - doesn't mean it functions better than a nice new dynamic climbing rope . Agreed, you don't need the top of the line titanium model, but you can be much safer than trying to breath from an Argon inflation reg.

 

[halocline]

But keeping that in mind, from a rock climbers stand point - just cause the old timers used hemp rope, and it's cheaper - doesn't mean it functions better than a nice new dynamic climbing rope . Agreed, you don't need the top of the line titanium model, but you can be much safer than trying to breath from an Argon inflation reg.

Its an interesting analogy, but there are a few crucial differences between climbing gear and scuba gear. First, newer ropes (and most climbing gear) really are better, where scuba regulators have not really improved in decades. Second, as a climber, your life really does depend on your gear protection (ropes, harnesses, biners, etc) and eventually every mountaineer who climbs in high consequence situations will absolutely test the safety of that protection. Everybody falls eventually, and at that moment your life is literally hanging on a rope. This is not the case with diving; all diving protocols that I am aware of specifically address gear failure. At no point in anyone's dive should their life depend on a functioning of a regulator. The other thing is that you can easily test dive gear, and determine that it's working correctly. With climbing protection, you really don't know if it's working until the instant you need it.

I would not buy used climbing ropes or biners or quickdraws, etc, because there really could be damage caused by a fall that's not apparent, at least to me. But I buy used regulators all the time (I have a bit of a problem, I admit...)

Peter, I apologize for calling you out on your comment, but I'm sensitized to the rampant use of 'is your life worth it' to sell needlessly expensive dive gear, often by dive professionals to students and/or new divers. Its wrong, and it takes advantage of the student/teacher relationship. I'm sure you as a teacher don't do that, but many others do....it's pretty well entrenched in the recreational dive gear industry.

 

[Dsix36]

I just tested this out with my argon reg and a dive rite second stage. the simple answer is that IT DOES NOT WORK. There is no way that it will supply enough air for you to breathe. Nothing like trying to suffocate myself in the garage.

 

[Tigerman]

Sounds very optimistic for someone trying to suffocate

 

[Peter Guy]

Halocline, absolutely no need to apologize. I happen to agree with you that way too many people are oversold gear.

 

[hongrace]

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread. I use an Apeks US4 (a non-sealed version of the DS4) for argon drysuit inflation. I am just thinking if I can put this US4 (which itself is a proper 1st stage for breathing) into an air tank and breathe from it. I believe it would do any harm but i ask just in case there is something that I don't know. Would it get itself "contaminated" by argon?

 

[kathydee]

Its an interesting analogy, but there are a few crucial differences between climbing gear and scuba gear. First, newer ropes (and most climbing gear) really are better, where scuba regulators have not really improved in decades. Second, as a climber, your life really does depend on your gear protection (ropes, harnesses, biners, etc) and eventually every mountaineer who climbs in high consequence situations will absolutely test the safety of that protection. Everybody falls eventually, and at that moment your life is literally hanging on a rope. This is not the case with diving; all diving protocols that I am aware of specifically address gear failure. At no point in anyone's dive should their life depend on a functioning of a regulator. The other thing is that you can easily test dive gear, and determine that it's working correctly. With climbing protection, you really don't know if it's working until the instant you need it.

I would not buy used climbing ropes or biners or quickdraws, etc, because there really could be damage caused by a fall that's not apparent, at least to me. But I buy used regulators all the time (I have a bit of a problem, I admit...) .

Oh, sorry, don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating against purchasing used equipment. I have purchased quite a bit of my scuba equipment second hand.


But since we are chatting climbing - you better have a pretty good idea about how your gear placement will function before you need it .

 

[herman]

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread. I use an Apeks US4 (a non-sealed version of the DS4) for argon drysuit inflation. I am just thinking if I can put this US4 (which itself is a proper 1st stage for breathing) into an air tank and breathe from it. I believe it would do any harm but i ask just in case there is something that I don't know. Would it get itself "contaminated" by argon?

No need to worry about that, argon being a gas will not stay in the reg like a liquid could and since it's a nobile gas, it will not react with any material in the reg. At worst the reg could have some residual gas in it which would be blown out the first time you purged (test) the reg and even is you somehow managed to breath it, argon is not toxic and at most all you could get would be one breath of air with a very slightly elevated argon level which is no big deal......now attaching it to a used argon tank is a totally different matter but that has to do with the contents of the tank, not the reg itself.

 

[chrpai]

I think a better argument could be made around gear standardization. I dive a Hog D1 and if I buy another Hog D1 for my stage I can use it as my primary if the other fails or needs to be serviced. That's worth a few $$$ to me alone.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

As Dsix36 figured out the design goals of a dry suit inflation reg are a little different. A breathing reg is designed to deliver enough gas to supply a diver at depth. Even low end flow by first stages do that pretty well down to recreational depth limits of 130'. With an inflation reg, the idea is to supply only a small amount of gas. That means smaller flow passages and a lower IP.

Less is more in that case as with a lower IP the rate of valve failure is lower and any leak or failure that does occur will leak less gas in a given amount of time and is thus less problematic. Most modern dry suit valves use a flow restrictor anyway, but this just adds another layer to that defense, and if the DS inflator valve has a restrictor, more performance is just wasted anyway.

Another advantage is that smaller flow passages, smaller pistons, etc mean a smaller form factor, something that is nice on an inflation reg.

You can compare the relative sizes of the regs and parts below. The "large" one is a Scubapro Mk 3 - about as small and low performing as I'd recommend for diving with a "flow by" piston design regulator. The other is a Dive Rite inflation reg. I use both as inflation regs and you'll notice the similar design, but smaller scale of the DR inflation reg. If you look really closely you'll note the significantly smaller air passage in the LP port in the DR reg. It's not visible, but the DR reg also has a smaller orifice and working range, both of which further limit the flow rate. Finally, you'll note the smaller spring, in size, length and number of coils. The end result of that is an IP of 70 psi on a full tank compared to 140 psi with the Mk 3, again reducing flow rate.

Ignore the thumb in the first picture it's still pre-coffee here: