Can someone explain freezing

[matt_unique]

Forgive me if I am not getting it. The reg fails to deliver air so at this point I am holding my breath and trying to buddy breathe? What is the significance of the the tank being full or empty? I guess what I don't understand is "time to figure things out".
Thanks

It depends on the rate of the flow. If you have a slow free flow and a full tank it could take 20 minutes for the tank to empty. If the first stage is frozen close to wide open it can empty a full tank in under 2 minutes as I recall. (There is another thread somewhere in the archives that showed the results of some non-scientific tests).

Two weeks ago my buddy developed a free flow, we were diving in 37 degree F water and 20 degree F air. It was a slow leak, it was a shallow shore dive, so he opted to watch his gas close and continue with the dive. We completed our dive once he signaled it was time to surface. We had a long surface swim back to shore. Halfway back to shore the tank had emptied.

When a reg freezes, it will freeze open. You will be able to breath from the regulator while this is happening as you were taught from your OW class. Your choice of response would depend on a lot of things - your gear, your depth, the proximity of your buddy, etc. If you're on a single tank and relatively shallow, head to the surface with a normal ascent. If you're deep and your buddy is around, breath from his octo and ascend to the surface normal. If you're deep, on a single, and there is no buddy in sight, you need to 'expedite' your pace to the surface. You would need to decide/gauge this based on your circumstances.

If you can reach your tank valve shut it off for a few seconds, then slowly turn it back on. This can sometimes remedy a frozen first stage. I had a freeze/free flow once at 118' with water temps in the mid 40's. I was on doubles so I could have isolated and switched to my second primary reg. I had just taken a larger than normal breath and it froze open. With this in mind I closed the tank valve, waited for a few seconds, then turned it back on slowly and it was fine.

--Matt

 

[Warren_L]

When you say "proper gas management" in cold water, what do you mean? Gas management means to me, watching your pressure and maintaining enough to do stops and possibly some surface time in rough water (I guess also being aware or your load)

Yes, that is certainly part of it. But to expand further, gas management will also incorporate when you use your regulator. Typically there are 3 main uses of your regulator - breathing, inflating your BC, inflating your drysuit (if you use one). Try to time the use of your regulator so that you're not stressing the 1st stage too much (i.e. drawing a lot of air which will result in greater cooling of the 1st stage). Make sure you adjust your buoyancy correctly and frequently to avoid having to inflate your BC in large bursts. Time these small bursts to occur between breaths. In warmer water, this is not going to be much of an issue, but in cold water, it can make a difference.

 

[oversea]

No problem. Reg failure usually means that the reg fails open, so air continuously bleeds from your tank in an uncontrollable manner. In this event, you can still breathe off the freeflow (which you would have learned how to do in your open water class). Depending on how much gas is still in your tank, there still should be time to take appropriate measures. If your tank is close to being empty at this point, you will have less time to work on the problem.

By figuring things out, what that means is to take appropriate action to get you out of trouble. Your buddy should be close by. Signal the problem to your buddy, who could donate a working reg to you, perhaps shut off your first stage, and ascend with you. If for some reason your buddy is not around, you need to decide what your plan of action might be - if you have a pony, you could use that. If you can ascend safely on your own, you could do that. A lot depends on your training and using your head to evaluate the situation and decide on a course of action.

Totally clear now. I have a pony (never dove one though) and a posedon cyklon reg for it. From what I understand they are supposed to be excellent for cold deep diving, but again that is only hearsay. It gives me a bit of comfort knowing my pony has a reg that is resistant (supposedly) to freezing should I have a problem. The one thing about the poseidon that concerns me is it seems to freeflow easy, when I push the purge it freeflows until I stick my finger in and stop the mechanism. Maybe someone with some poseidon experience could clue me in abit.

 

[Warren_L]

Totally clear now. I have a pony (never dove one though) and a posedon cyklon reg for it. From what I understand they are supposed to be excellent for cold deep diving, but again that is only hearsay. It gives me a bit of comfort knowing my pony has a reg that is resistant (supposedly) to freezing should I have a problem. The one thing about the poseidon that concerns me is it seems to freeflow easy, when I push the purge it freeflows until I stick my finger in and stop the mechanism. Maybe someone with some poseidon experience could clue me in abit.

Poseidons, as far as I know, are excellent cold water regs which are not prone to freeflowing. If you purge any second stage underwater with the purge button down, many will freeflow. The solution - turn the reg down so the purge button is up and it should stop. If it doesn't, it may mean the 2nd stage might need some adjustment. Cracking pressure might be too high, for example. If it needs adjustment, I would take it to someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[oversea]

Poseidons, as far as I know, are excellent cold water regs which are not prone to freeflowing. If you purge any second stage underwater with the purge button down, many will freeflow. The solution - turn the reg down so the purge button is up and it should stop. If it doesn't, it may mean the 2nd stage might need some adjustment. Cracking pressure might be too high, for example. If it needs adjustment, I would take it to someone who knows what they're doing.

Here is the lowdown on the reg. I was given/found it in a dumpster (construction site). It had not been serviced or used in years. I brought it to my LDS for an opinion on its value. They said they are good and would be worth fixing up. So I had them completely redo it and its like new. So for 150 bucks I have another good reg. The freeflowing is not underwater but in my house. I don't know if thats the way they are or not. As I want to use this for my pony, it would stink to have it freeflow often. Of course it really won't matter much as I intend on charging the reg and then closing the valve. My Lds did show me a small sleeve down on the mouthpiece that when turned adjusts the flow. Maybe thats the solution?

 

[Warren_L]

Here is the lowdown on the reg. I was given/found it in a dumpster (construction site). It had not been serviced or used in years. I brought it to my LDS for an opinion on its value. They said they are good and would be worth fixing up. So I had them completely redo it and its like new. So for 150 bucks I have another good reg. The freeflowing is not underwater but in my house. I don't know if thats the way they are or not. As I want to use this for my pony, it would stink to have it freeflow often. Of course it really won't matter much as I intend on charging the reg and then closing the valve. My Lds did show me a small sleeve down on the mouthpiece that when turned adjusts the flow. Maybe thats the solution?

Hmmm .... if you found the reg I'm not sure how you can be sure about the service history, but nonetheless, if your LDS had a qualified technician service the reg, it should be fine. I don't have a poseidon and don't know much about them, so I cannot comment on that adjustment you describe. On other regs, that sounds like it might be a venturi adjustment. And what do you mean by charging the reg and closing the valve? If you mean pressurising the line and then turning the valve off, I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

 

[jonnythan]

Put the second stage in a bucket of water. If it stops freeflowing when you put the diaphragm up (or you place your finger over the mouthpiece on land) it's fine for normal use but you will probably want to have it de-tuned a little if it's a backup. A little extra work breathing is a good tradeoff to prevent pony regs from freeflowing when you get in the water.

 

[oversea]

And what do you mean by charging the reg and closing the valve? If you mean pressurising the line and then turning the valve off, I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

Yes thats what I mean. The thought is to have a pressurized reg ready and should it freeflow, it will just relieve the line pressure and not the pony. In that instance I'll just need to re-pressurize it should its need arise.

 

[Warren_L]

Yes thats what I mean. The thought is to have a pressurized reg ready and should it freeflow, it will just relieve the line pressure and not the pony. In that instance I'll just need to re-pressurize it should its need arise.

I personally wouldn't do that. The pressure in the line will likely be in the 150psi range and if there was a problem with your second stage on your pony, it wouldn't freeflow for long and you may not even notice it. It would bleed off relatively quickly and then you'd have a problem and not realize it. I would say that if your pony doesn't freeflow on you when you first get in the water, the chances it will freeflow during the dive later on are pretty small since you're not drawing any gas from the pony's reg (unless of course there is some sort of other failure such as an o-ring, for example). You would also have to worry about turning the thing on as well. Just one more thing to do under stress. In fact, you'd want your pony on so that if there was a problem, you'd know about it - and I would avoid strapping the pony to your tank. If you sling it properly you should be able to see any leaks from the first stage as well as the pressure guage on it (if you use one).

 

[oversea]

I personally wouldn't do that. The pressure in the line will likely be in the 150psi range and if there was a problem with your second stage on your pony, it wouldn't freeflow for long and you may not even notice it. It would bleed off relatively quickly and then you'd have a problem and not realize it. I would say that if your pony doesn't freeflow on you when you first get in the water, the chances it will freeflow during the dive later on are pretty small since you're not drawing any gas from the pony's reg (unless of course there is some sort of other failure such as an o-ring, for example). You would also have to worry about turning the thing on as well. Just one more thing to do under stress. In fact, you'd want your pony on so that if there was a problem, you'd know about it - and I would avoid strapping the pony to your tank. If you sling it properly you should be able to see any leaks from the first stage as well as the pressure guage on it (if you use one).

I always kinda liked the idea of slinging it as opposed to mounting it with a bracket but my LDS (and others) said it's not a good idea. I also like the idea of clipping it to my plate like the OMS argon bottles. I guess my LDS wants to sell "X" brackets and such.