Can people really get scuba certified without knowing how to swim?

[k ellis]

90% will accept what you say. 9% will try and fail. And 1% will do it just to prove you wrong.

Looks like I made the 1%

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

Perseverance for me is one of the most admirable human traits.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me "what does it mean to be able to swim?"

IF, for example, a person can roll over on their back and using arms and/or legs, propel themselves for 200 yards, can they "swim?" The dog in the story undoubtedly was doing a "dog paddle" stroke and if a student did that for 200 (400, whatever) yards, can they "swim?"

It sounds like "some" of the posters equate "being a swimmer" with someone who has a recognizable stroke and can efficiently use that stroke over "X" distance and within "Y" time. So, what does it mean to "be able to swim?"

To 'swim', they need to be able to float on their back and stomach and flip between the two, they need to be able to submerge their face in the water and blow bubbles through their mouth and nose, they need to be able to glide through the water with minimal scuffling of the arms and legs, and they need to be able to make continual forward progression in the water (dog paddle acceptable)

 

[irmo]

I agree with Jill and will add my own thoughts.

Although new to diving, I've been swimming all my life. I was a competitor when I was young (not olympic), a lifeguard both at pools and on the ocean, taught swimming, played water polo, and still swim for fun and exercise. All that background is so you know where I'm coming from.

Being able to propel yourself through the water for 200 continuous yards (no standing or holding on) would qualify as swimming in my book, but doesn't make you competent or even safe. Elementary backstroke is considered a resting stroke, something you do to recover and not drown. You can call that swimming, problem is you can't tell whether you're going in circles or not unless you are in a lap lane. Dog paddle takes too much energy, you will sink eventually....unless maybe you're a dog. So what is good enough to be called a competent swimmer? I like the Boy Scouts standard; in water over your head swim 75 yards using a strong forward stroke or combination of strokes such as crawl (freestyle), breaststroke, sidestroke or trudgen, then 25 yards using a resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be continuous. Then there is a floating, treading water requirement also. I like this because if you can swim a recognized forward stroke for 75 yards, then perform a resting stroke for 25, you can can likely alternate back and forth well enough to swim your way out of most trouble (like a tipped canoe). The diving standards I've seen here are a little higher..200 yards. That's a good thing.

Just my opinion.

 

[RTee]

I agree with Jill and will add my own thoughts.

Although new to diving...

Being able to propel yourself through the water for 200 continuous yards (no standing or holding on) would qualify as swimming in my book, (based on what definitions...yours?) but doesn't make you competent or even safe (again....based on what...what are we trying to accomplish? Anything less than Ironman standards is then considered just splashing) Elementary backstroke is considered a resting stroke, something you do to recover and not drown. You can call that swimming, problem is you can't tell whether you're going in circles or not unless you are in a lap lane. *( You are right...you are new to diving..What is the purpose of such test??? So far, it is only interpretation...oops you fell off the boat) How do you surface swim when scuba diving?...most of us do it on our back and on top of our inflated BC because we do not carry a snorkel)... Dog paddle takes too much energy, you will sink eventually....unless maybe you're a dog . So what is good enough to be called a competent swimmer? (again...for what purpose....rescue diver? last time I looked, this was a course of its own. Lifeguard? Competitive swimming?...Wrong forum I say... I like the Boy Scouts standard; in water over your head swim 75 yards using a strong forward stroke or combination of strokes such as crawl (freestyle), breaststroke, sidestroke or trudgen, then 25 yards using a resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be continuous. Then there is a floating, treading water requirement also. I like this because if you can swim a recognized forward stroke for 75 yards, then perform a resting stroke for 25, you can can likely alternate back and forth well enough to swim your way out of most trouble (like a tipped canoe). The diving standards I've seen here are a little higher..200 yards. That's a good thing.

Just my opinion.

Irmo, food for thougths...

 

[RTee]

If I know someone cannot swim I do not dive with them Fair...I respect that because it is your choice. Or as stated will not be on the boat with a diver that cannot swim (Again, but you are willing to share the roads with people you have no clues as to their driving abilities, state of mind and the conditions they are in...). It is a conscious choice I make . I do not know about the other drivers on the road (You do not know about the divers either so why do you feel responsible for all of them all in a sudden) . I have to trust that someone is licensed, passed some type of test, and is not drunk (who says that a poor swimmer is not a decent diver?...you assume they are not) . If I see someone weaving or driving erratically I get out of the way and call 911 (fair...interesting that you do not apply the same philosophy to diving) . If I see someone stagger out of a bar and get into a car I call the cops. (Again nothing prevents you from telling a charter that you do not want to dive with said individual after observing that he is a risk to himself and others...not assuming beforehand)Not diving with someone who cannot swim or being on the same boat with them is the same defensive strategy (I will disagree with you as you posed judgement before observing any supporting facts). I choose not to out myself in a situation that is an unaccpetable risk to myself and others (Fair.... A person who cannot swim is an unacceptable risk to me. They cannot help me if I have a problem in the water without taking valuable time to gear up. (Interesting considering previous posts to the effect that ideally you prefer conducting your own dive even those that might be Divemaster led...unless I am confusing you with somebody else) I prefer diving on your ownBy the same token I'm not going to risk my life for their decision to skirt what I consider a basic life skill. I see too many people who want to cut corners and not put in the work required to do something properly. In all areas of life. I choose not to enable them, condone the behavior, or support them in any way. I work for what I have and if I still cannot attain it I try harder or do without. I had a lady call me for lessons last fall. She explained she was a very poor swimmer. I told her I'm not a swim teacher and that she needs to learn how to swim before I cann accept her and why. If that loses me a student so be it.( I respect your decision) In this case she saw the logic and is now taking swim lessons.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatan

Jim, to me this would equate to telling a dive shop or charter that I want to be reimbursed and/or refuse to get on the boat because we are about to conduct a dive well below 60 ft (any exotic places down South...just like this never happens BTW) and I have just been appraised that they are some folks who are only certified OW and will be part of my group or that dive. If you were to make similar decision in such situation then great...I will say that you are consistent.

 

[Jill from Phoenix]

Regarding the reference to Ironman, they are not the strongest swimmers. Not like Olympic swimmers or even other amateur aquathon racers. Most triathletes are first and foremost cyclists and lastly swimmers. I know because I do triathlon and have done a half ironman and the triathletes are scared to death of the swim. I'm backwards: I rock at the swim and then the athletes all pass me on the bike. But, what do you call a triathlete in last place? Atriathlete.

 

[Peter Guy]

BTW, thank you Jill for at least attempting to answer my question.

 

[Colliam7]

IF, for example, a person can roll over on their back and using arms and/or legs, propel themselves for 200 yards, can they "swim?"

In terms of meeting the PADI swim test standards, YES. And, I do not mean that response as a back-handed slap at PADI by any means. If I had a student do that, I would not consider them a 'good' swimmer, but I would say that they could swim in terms of meeting the water skills requirement.

It sounds like "some" of the posters equate "being a swimmer" with someone who has a recognizable stroke and can efficiently use that stroke over "X" distance and within "Y" time.

That would probably be my personal definition, perhaps excepting the ' "Y" time ' portion. I know some experienced, reasonably proficient, but quite SLOW swimmers.

Jills' definition caused me to think about swimming with various strokes, at least as I learned to swim in classes years ago:

they need to be able to float on their back and stomach and flip between the two,

To do the crawl, breast stroke and side stroke, you would need to be able to float on one but not necessarily both (unless you add the backstroke), and not necessarily be able to flip between the two.

they need to be able to submerge their face in the water and blow bubbles through their mouth and nose

You could technically, and probably effectively, do the crawl, breast stroke, side stroke and back stroke without submerging your face, although it wouldn't be as efficient, and might not get the highest number of style points. And, since you don't absolutely have to submerge your face, you wouldn't have to be able to blow bubbles.

they need to be able to glide through the water with minimal scuffling of the arms and legs,

Yes.

and they need to be able to make continual forward progression in the water (dog paddle acceptable)

Yes, although my swim instructor would not have acknowledged the dog paddle as a form of swimming. I do this not to quibble with Jill's definition at all, but rather to add emphasis to a point I think that Peter is making - it isn't as easy as it might otherwise seem to say what it means to "be able to swim". Maybe, swimming is like art - 'I can't define what art / swimming is, but I know it when I see it.

 

[irmo]

From Rtee:

Being able to propel yourself through the water for 200 continuous yards (no standing or holding on) would qualify as swimming in my book, (based on what definitions...yours?)

Um.... yes, by my definitions...that's why I used phrases like "my thoughts", "in my book", and "just my opinion".

"*( You are right...you are new to diving..What is the purpose of such test??? So far, it is only interpretation...oops you fell off the boat)"

Yes,exactly. In case you fall off the boat or have some other situation where you find yourself in the water without equipment.