DevonDiver
N/A
Since when did fear contraindicate safety?
Can people really get scuba certified without knowing how to swim?
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Perhaps excessive fear would be a better descriptor. Or maybe you would rather think in terms of impending panic. And I am sure there may be some divers who can safely panic but it is still a pretty good indicator of those who should be on a golf course somewhere rather than under water.
DevonDiver
N/A
Agreed - but fear and panic are two very different things. Fear is a natural instinct that warns us of potential risk. Panic is an uncontrolled physical and psychological reaction to that fear.
Lack of fear can indicate either confidence or false-confidence. It can mean that the diver acknowledge potential risk, but positively assesses his capability to mitigate that risk. It can also mean that the diver has failed to acknowledge or recognise risk... or has inaccurately assessed their capability to mitigate it.
Lack of fear can indicate either confidence or false-confidence. It can mean that the diver acknowledge potential risk, but positively assesses his capability to mitigate that risk. It can also mean that the diver has failed to acknowledge or recognise risk... or has inaccurately assessed their capability to mitigate it.
Devon...two those terms are not synonymous. However, philosophically, if said individual has demonstrated that he/she can:
swim 300 meters with snorkeling equipment,
tow another diver over the necessary distance,
swim on the surface either using his snorkel or on his back to get to the entry point if shore diving,
if in the event of BCD malfunction he will take the corrective actions and go back up to the surface with his buddy including ditching weight to ensure positive buoyancy at the surface,
met the standard for all the basic tasks of his OW course, and
can float with his wetsuit.
Could you please tell me where you might see a lack of safety? If we want to associate swimming abilities with greater safety, I could revert the question and ask you how many decent swimmers have you seen panicking underwater or at the surface as part of your instructional career?
FYI I am not a hardcore proponent for non-swimmer divers. Is it ideal?...far from it. But having said that, I do happen to have a good friend falling in that category. He has over 100 dives in the last three years and in a variety of diving environments (cold/warm, limited vis, current, boat, deep (100 ft), fresh/salt, great vis) and I have dove with him (as a buddy or part of my diving group) in all these conditions...I even buddied up with him for AOW (knowing full well about his non-swimming ability). He is also known to not be frugal when it comes to air consumption but I will tell you something...I have never felt threaten by his ''condition'' and I trust him as a dive buddy...in fact much more than any of those insta buddies self proclaimed experienced divers. How much trust I have in him...enough to be comfy for him to buddy up with my GF as she has no problem at all diving with him. Why...he knows his limitations and will be up front about them. He will not place himself in perilous situations endangering himself and his/her buddy, he will listen, adhere to the dive plan and maintain proper station-keeping. While he rarely assumes the role of dive leader (gee whiz...that's why we have DM after all) he makes a terrific number two.
My situation is quite different from yours, granted...but I find it much easier to deal with known factors as I can address them early and take proper mitigating actions than be surprised by Jack in the Box.
Cheers.
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Interesting perspective, which I had not really thought about before. Thanks for making the point.
I have never used the MFS 300 meter 'swim' as an alternative for the 200 meter swim in PADI OW. (Maybe, I shouldn't say that publicly, perhaps I have violated a standard.
) Of course, no student in any of my courses has ever failed the 200 meter swim, either.While I realize the OP started the thread in the hope of hearing from non-swimming divers, this discussion has been useful nonetheless. The students that I have had who struggled with OW were, generally, individuals who were not terribly comfortable in the water, even if they passed the 200 meter swim test. I had an OW student this Fall who, with encouragement, decided after the first Confined Water session to discontinue scuba training. While she did complete the 200 meter swim, she was obviously uncomfortable in the water, in or out of scuba gear, and I felt her safety would ultimately be compromised by her lack of comfort in the water. Fortunately, she agreed. I also think her lack of comfort in the water was a reflection of the fact that she was not a particularly good swimmer, which she even stated at the outset, and her confidence in the water suffered as a result of that awareness.
The students that I have had who struggled with buoyancy control the most were, generally, students who were not particularly good swimmers. As I have increasingly focused on getting students to use the frog kick as a primary propulsion technique beginning with OW, I have also come to realize how many people have never really learned to swim in any formal manner, based on the number of students who cannot do an effective frog kick. That was an essential part of learning the breast stroke, which was an essential part of my swim lessons as a youngster.
DevonDiver
N/A
Diver falls off the boat.
Nil.
Me too. Which is why I would prefer an assurance that any diver I accompanied on a dive, on a boat or in the water for any other reason was a reasonably competent swimmer. Swimming/watermanship assessments, if conducted honestly, provide that assurance.
As for taking 'mitigating actions'...If I knew that the diver concerned didn't have a reasonable competence in any stated aspect of their training, including the swim test, then I'd decline to dive with them (as a private individual) or decline their custom until such deficits were rectified (as a dive operator).
Divers need to know how to swim. There, I said it. They NEED to know how to swim. That ability is a big factor on being comfortable in and around water, which I think is a huge safety issue. My wife and dive buddy was a marginal swimmer when she started diving, but she could swim. For the past several years she has been a lap swimmer as part of her regular exercise regimen, swimming quarter mile intervals at a comfortable, not racer's pace. She likes to wear mask and snorkel, but no fins- that would be cheating. The comment about a diver falling off a boat is no joke- it happens, and that person should be able to swim. The more competence you have in or on the water, in and out of scuba gear, the safer you are. I for one say "shame" to any instructor from any agency who cuts corners in teaching, training or testing. That includes a Legitimate 200 meter swim, any stroke, any time, no cheating. I believe most people agree with me here.
DivemasterDennis
DivemasterDennis
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When I did a discover dive I got hooked and in the discover scuba one does not have to know how to swim. I then thinking that this was true for all certs I ran down and signed up. Only to discover I had to pass either a swim or a snorkle test. Snorkling is fun and easy so I had no problem there but the float is what would do me in. I could not swim 6 inches and could not float without touching bottom. I discussed it with my instructor and he taught me how to float. Despite not being able to swim their was no violation of standards because I was able to float and able to complete the snorkle skill.
He brought me in and taught me how to float and did so despite years of swim lessons proved ineffective. Today with the help of my instructor though I am now a proud divemaster and working to make instructor someday but thats still a ways off.
I adore my divemaster because it means more to me then most other divemasters I know. To them it means status or it means they were ordained by the scuba God himself (Many of those are on here) and some are really good divemasters. But mine proved to be the completion of a life long dream of just being able to swim and I accomplished that with the determination that I was not going to fail and I was going to be a dive professional.
In my experience as an instructor, the 10 minute float is a better indicator of the diver's ability than the swim, but I have never had a student fail either. If a student can do both, then the student has some ability to swim, so it should not be possible for any diver to say they cannot swim at all.
But it is possible.
I became certified to dive in a resort in Mexico quite a few years ago. I had no idea what the rules were for certification. I was never asked to do either a swim or a float. I didn't look into my log book until years after certification, and I was surprised to see that the instructor had signed off that I had done both. He signed off that I had done a lot of other things that I hadn't done as well.
That was a HUGE diver operator that regularly certified a large number of students. I assume none were asked to demonstrate swimming ability. Is it possible some got certified without the ability to pass a swim test? Of course it is.
But it is possible.
I became certified to dive in a resort in Mexico quite a few years ago. I had no idea what the rules were for certification. I was never asked to do either a swim or a float. I didn't look into my log book until years after certification, and I was surprised to see that the instructor had signed off that I had done both. He signed off that I had done a lot of other things that I hadn't done as well.
That was a HUGE diver operator that regularly certified a large number of students. I assume none were asked to demonstrate swimming ability. Is it possible some got certified without the ability to pass a swim test? Of course it is.
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