Buoyancy and thick wetsuits

[Eric Sedletzky]

You say you've been diving wet during the summer months. Does this mean you dive dry during the winter months or not at all?

If you do have a drysuit, then I suggest you dive dry all the time and vary your undergarments during the summer. Assuming you have a shell drysuit that won't compress at depth, then your issue will be solved. Your BC will have the necessary lift you need.

If you don't have a drysuit, then I'd recommend investing in one. Thick wetsuits are not your friend.

Jonathan

P.S. Of course you'll need to add gas to your drysuit to maintain loft like Pete says... Thank you Pete.

What your post should have read was "CHEAP wetsuits are not your friend".

I've had many wetsuits. I have a drysuit, and now again a couple of very high grade custom wetsuits.
Drysuits are great but not without their problems. The initial cost can be prohibitive.
Maintenance can add up and unexpected breakdowns can cause missed dives and sometimes safety issues during a dive. On multi day boat trips drysuits can be problematic in that your undergarments can get soggy from sweat and seapage and the inside of the suit can get damp too. I used to have to bring several changes of underwear just so that I could keep it a "drysuit" during the duration of the trip.

When I was using off the rack wetsuits this was probably the worst experiences I had with cold. When I started diving I thought the onset of hypothermia was just part of it. I remember all the cramps and the shaking and trying to stand up after getting back to the beach and all the rest of the issues with cheap wetsuits.
Virtually all the suits they make for retail dive shops are made from the newest super stretchy material, some of it's skin-in, some they call hyperstretch, all these are made so that a general cut will fit nicely and be comfy when any size or shape person tries them on in the store. What happens when you have to stretch a wetsuit over a larger area of your body? the neoprene thins out in that one spot right?
What happens when you take one of those super stretchy comfy-in-the-store suits that fit's you so well down to 100 feet? they become paper thin and you freeze.

I am a die hard wetsuit fan because I like the way they are streamlined and I also know I will never miss a dive wearing a wetsuit and I can also pee if I have to (I know it's gross).
What I did was order a couple custom made wetsuits from a place in Long Beach, Ca. made out of commercial grade neoprene that has a much denser material than the onesize fitsall suits. With these custom suits they take all sorts of measurements and make a suit that fits your body exactly. With the denser material you have to have it fit really nice because they don't stretch as much, they also don't compress nearly as bad at depth. That's how I can get away with using a #30 pound wing with a 1/2" suit, because the thing doesn't compress nearly as bad as a cheap suit.

I have 2 custom suits, a 7mm beavertail w/ attached hood and the 1/2' beavertail w/ attached hood. Both are skin-in and custom made so there's no restriction anywhere especially around the chest. One I paid just over $600 and the other was around $1000, but they are top grade commercial material that is not available in regular dive shops and will last for many years. So for $1600 I bought two custom suits, each for different applications and I'm warmer than I ever was in my drysuit (the 1/2" is like diving in a hot tub in 52 degree water). I'll never have a maintenance issue again that I can't fix myself and I'll never miss a dive.

I realize most people just invest in a drysuit and go that route and I'm somewhat of an oddball, but I figured I'd mention the custom wetsuit as an option you could explore.
I tend to be more of an old school minimalist style diver and I try to keep the fluff to a minimum. I dislike drysuits to some degree becase they kind of go against the grain of minimalist philosophy.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I have 2 custom suits, a 7mm beavertail w/ attached hood and the 1/2' beavertail w/ attached hood. Both are skin-in and custom made so there's no restriction anywhere especially around the chest. One I paid just over $600 and the other was around $1000, but they are top grade commercial material that is not available in regular dive shops and will last for many years. .

So do these suits have any zippers or is it a pull over jacket? I have a custom made elios 7mm hooded jacket made from medium density neoprene (with no zipper) and it is very warm. I have used 3/8" suits also, but never 1/2" suits. Are the arms and legs really 1/2" thick?

 

[bisugo767]

You say you've been diving wet during the summer months. Does this mean you dive dry during the winter months or not at all?

If you do have a drysuit, then I suggest you dive dry all the time and vary your undergarments during the summer. Assuming you have a shell drysuit that won't compress at depth, then your issue will be solved. Your BC will have the necessary lift you need.

If you don't have a drysuit, then I'd recommend investing in one. Thick wetsuits are not your friend.

Jonathan

P.S. Of course you'll need to add gas to your drysuit to maintain loft like Pete says... Thank you Pete.

Jonathan, I dive wet all the time during late spring, summer and early fall. Though I have taken the dry suit course, I do not own one yet. For two reasons, lack of storage space in my 1 bedroom condo and expensive investment. I wear a size 13 shoe so this means custom size Large Tall suit and large rock boots. Large boots mean another set of fins. All these exra gear add to the cost of the whole set which I cannot afford yet. And, really things do get complicated when you have everything and the maintenance that goes with it too. I would love to dive dry but i will have to wait.

Phil (bisugo767)

 

[bisugo767]

spectrum, thanks for the feedback. I suspect that my large-size SeaQuest ProQD is a bit fitting when I wear the 14mm suit, I believe this is why I cannot get more lift on my BC (i.e. could not get more air in before I reach the OPV valve limit). I just bought a used but excellent Seaquest Black Diamond back-inflate BC but I have yet to try it (its almost winter already). Since its a back inflate BC (nothing restricting it), I do not have to worry about the torso being a bit fitting.

I am perfectly calm and relaxed in water. No problems with coordinated breathing as well. I have no fear of water and can do a mask removal/replacement with my eyes wide open underwater with ease. The dive site I go to is a shore dive but you have to walk through a parking lot, down a concrete ramp, and through some logs to the beach. The total walking distance is around 500-feet. Plus add in the swim out from shore, another 500-ft. I am usually breathing hard by the time we reach the descent point. I attribute this to not working out for at least two weeks because of my work load. I do catch my breath for a few minutes on the surface (just floating on my back) before my buddy and I descend.

Thank you for your bouyancy check tip. I do have the PADI Perfecting Bouyancy DVD and I am aware of the bouyancy check procedure you mentioned. I will be trying it out as well when I dive again.

Phil (bisugo767)

bisugo767,

Why do we use a BC? It's to compensate for the change in buoyancy in our gear as we dive. That change comes from 2 main sources. Our neoprene become less buoyant with depth and our cylinder becomes more buoyant as we dive. If it serves that purpose we should be golden at the surface since at that time our neoprene is fully buoyant.

Regarding your weighting a common number (and it's only that) Dumpster Diver mentioned 26 pounds and I also use 26 with a steel cylinder in the ocean while wearing similar neoprene. Adjusted for for an AL-80 I would need 33 pounds. So you being you it's possible that you are not over weighted.

Below 30 feet you should more or less drop like a rock and need to add air to your BC.

Getting back to why we use a BC now you said you were fully inflated at 60 feet and still negative. Something is wrong with this picture because there is no way you lost 46 pounds of buoyancy from neoprene compression. So what is wrong? I see 2 possibilities.

1. You are getting a tremendous amount of water into your BC (or not draining it) robbing it of it's advertised lift capacity. (There is also an outside chance that you have a wimpy OPV that prevent full inflation)
an/or
2. You are grossly over weighted. Perhaps your lung volume is varying widely causing you to find yourself buoyant in the shallows.

Have you ever tried to do something like this as a weight check?

Remember to set your weight so that you bob vertically at eye level at the end of your dive with an empty BC, an average breath, your feet still (crossed) and about 500 PSI in your cylinder. A deep breath should get your mask out of the water and a deep exhale should sink your mask. Do all of this while breathing from your regulator. The end of the dive is the defining moment for your weight requirement and you want just enough to let you stay down in the shallows with a light cylinder.

You can make the same test pre-dive with a full cylinder and add 5 pounds to compensate for the buoyancy gain you will experience as you breathe the tank down. Be sure to repeat at the end since you are apt to have some stowaway buoyancy (trapped air) in your gear early in the dive. You are safer being two pounds heavy than 2 pounds light.

What you are wearing for a wetsuit is nothing exceptional, something is wrong. I would not proceeded with the drysuit until you understand what's happening with your buoyancy. Adding the drysuit to the equation when 46 pounds of lift is not getting the job done could create an unpredictable situation.

Pete

 

[spectrum]

The dive site I go to is a shore dive but you have to walk through a parking lot, down a concrete ramp, and through some logs to the beach. The total walking distance is around 500-feet. Plus add in the swim out from shore, another 500-ft. I am usually breathing hard by the time we reach the descent point.

Remember too that it's not a race to get down. Swim out bob and chat. Take your snorkel get your face wet and mellow out. When you're settling down take your regulator and get happy breathing from that. Then do thumbs down and begin the dive.

If you're still pumped up from the hike and swim the trip down will be difficult and your body will be playing catch-up the whole dive.

Pete

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

So do these suits have any zippers or is it a pull over jacket? I have a custom made elios 7mm hooded jacket made from medium density neoprene (with no zipper) and it is very warm. I have used 3/8" suits also, but never 1/2" suits. Are the arms and legs really 1/2" thick?

Both suits are exactly the same cut.
They are an old school beavertail style with stainless clasps, 3/4 zip up the center front up to about the sternum, attached hood, skin-in, kevlar on the knees and elbows.

The 1/2 inch is made out USA manufactured Rubatex G-231 which I'm very sorry to say has not been manufactured now for a few years. I got the very last bit of material the suit maker had of this type. The bottoms are 1/2 all the way, the top is 1/2 all through the torso and in the center panel of the hood. The arms, hood side panels, and beaver tail are 3/8. The face seal is 1/4, (I laugh that the face seal is the same thickness as most wetsuits.)

The 7mm suit is made out of some stuff from china. Its the best commercial material made currently and it's close to Rubatex but not quite, I think it's actually a little stiffer. The cells look really small and it is very compression resistant compared to the regular cheap neoprene. They make it in 3mm 5mm 7mm 9mm 11mm and 13mm. I can't imagine using a suit made out of 13mm with this stuff! I suppose you'd get used to it sooner or later.

One thing about the super thick commercial suits is that it takes several dives to break them in and to get where your body develops the right muscles to move in them.
On the surface the 1/2 is murder but as soon as I get in the water and get it down a ways it loosens right up and even in 46 degree water I absolutely cannot feel the cold. I have about 30-40 dives on the 1/2 now and it's perfect.

I'm in love.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Thanks I figured the 3/8" was used on the arms.

What do the commercial wetsuit cold water divers use for boots? I used to wear a very thick pair of wool hiking socks under the boots and it made a huge difference, but I did not have the very best boots.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Thanks I figured the 3/8" was used on the arms.

What do the commercial wetsuit cold water divers use for boots? I used to wear a very thick pair of wool hiking socks under the boots and it made a huge difference, but I did not have the very best boots.

I wear a pair of 6.5 mil (1/4) neoprene socks that I made myself inside a pair of size 15heavy duty booties. The booties are High Tide Rangers, they're the heaviest I've been able to find yet. The wetsuit goes between the neoprene sock and the bootie.
The only reason I have so much crap on my feet is so I can make a pair of XXL jet fins fit right. If I had smaller feet I'd probably just wear a single high quality bootie, but my feet do stay very warm with what I've got.
The same guy who made my wetsuit said he'd make me a pair of 13 mil socks/booties with kevlar bottoms for around 75 bucks. I may call him and get a pair.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

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[DiveNav]

Height: 6-ft, 2-in.
Weight: 195-lbs.
Sex: Male
Tank: Al 80

I appreciate the offer. The simulator result will help me know where to start before I do a bouyancy check.

Phil

Simulator is giving me 29lb for your configuration when properly relaxed ...

Sinking the initial first ft is sometime the most difficult part ..... the wetsuit is still trapping air and it is more buoyant than normal ..... the gasp effect makes you inflate your lungs and so increase the buoyancy.

Also, when people insist to sink feet first ... they tend to kick to stay vertical ... but then the fin's thrust prevent them sinking.

My recommendation .... don't rush to sink, deflate your BC and breath just a bit ... and do NOT kick. If your body tends to tilt head down .. let it go for few feet (make sure to equalize soon and often) .... don't fight it ... and do NOT hyperventilate.
Once your are down 5 feet ... you are golden ... and you can trim for horizontal.

Regards,

I_AM