Build the Perfect Certification Agency

[RJP]

No, I'm saying turning diving into an industry beyond its natural capacity creates the problems we see.

An industry that wants to grow and innovate and improve does't constrain itself by some artificial concept of "its natural capacity" whatever that is. They look beyond that.

I think most of the problems in the industry is it is TOO constrained by it's "natural capacity." It is too focused on its own belief/definition of what diving is as a product, who should do it, and how it is delivered.

It's hard to maintain quality control when you are trying to bake a billion pound pie to carve up.

Interesting metaphor. Though if you really think about it - physical constraints notwithstanding - it would probably be far EASIER to maintain quality control if you're trying to bake a single billion-pound pie to carve up than it would ever be if you had a billion people each trying to bake their own one-pound pie.

 

[Diver0001]

I would say we need more people in diving who are not involved in the industry.

I think you're trying to say that we need professional management. Ok. I think at the detail level this could help. A professional manager might see beyond the issues of shop survival and recognise that the product being delivered is, at it's most basic level, balancing the question of physical safety for the client with the various needs of other stakeholders. Personally I think a lot of professional managers would not accept that assignment. The margins are small, the risks are high and gap between financial and performance requirements is significant. Why would a professional manager want to do this when there are much easier jobs to be done that pay much better?

In any case, what we don't need is a bunch of people writing standards who have no feeling for education and/or diving. That would quickly lead to the blind leading the blind. Even if shops are poorly managed, the agency needs to have the qualities to lead and see the big picture.

Likewise we don't need agencies that are lead by "pure" divers. Look at TDI. I'm pretty sure Gilliam wrote the standards. If it weren't for the fact that he could at least copy some of what PADI does then TDI's technical training would be a 5-alarm chaos. As it is their materials are summaries of facts interwoven with opinion being presented with the same intensity. IIRC it was their Trimix book that basically said at one point, "if you make mistake XYZ, then you probably deserved it". What kind of training is that?

PADI may be very reluctant to say anything that isn't verifiably factual, but the alternative of writing largely from practice to theory isn't very good either. Oh, and I don't want to pick on TDI. I've taken IANTD courses too. Their books are written (and knowing Tom, this might not be far from the truth), like a wine induced stream of consciousness. I've heard they've gotten better since he doesn't write anymore. Back in the day you had to read their books several times to understand the message.

This is what you get when material experts try to translate practice to theory. The same kind of crap happens when non-experts try to translate theory to practice. I see that last thing in my work all the time. 22 year old "consultants" who think they can advise sr. executive with 20 or 30 years of experience about how to do their job. The same thing can happen in diving when people who only understand the rules get too high to soon in the pyramid. For example, an ex-colleague who went from zero (non-diver) to hero (IDCS) in 6 months and now designs and defines the training approach for their shop based on the only mentor this person ever had, which is an instructor who engaged in a structural policy of standards violations. From what I see this person doesn't actually dive with students. They watch bubbles, not geared up, from shore while OW courses are executed in a couple of metres of water almost within arms reach of the jetty and then certifies students if the instructor who was "checking off the check list"... without a tour... without actually swimming with students... without going deeper than a few metres.... says it's "good enough".

This is what you get when someone without diving experience thinks they're an expert in training..... like the 22 year old master student who thinks they can run a company better than the boss.

It cuts both ways.

In reality you need experience AND you need theoretical knowledge. To my way of thinking PADI is one of the few agencies who have both. It's just a shame that they have to work with great many shops who have neither. If we're talking about what a perfect agency would do then it would be this: to set standards not only for instructors but also for shop management.

R..

 

[DaleC]

Yes John, that is what PADI could be, but not what it is. It's not about content perse but rather the misapplication of it. As for clubs and agencies... I don't know. I look at the local GUE scene and can't help feel they got it right. People who took the same sort of training, going out on a routine basis to dive with each other and mentoring those who are interested in improving. A commitment to community that extends beyond the classroom. How is that possible without lawsuits? What are they doing different?

What PADI does wrong is lump every diver into the same pot, and offer the same pathway to all. Divers are not all equal in desire motivation or skill. Many want the vacation experience. Some want to become divers for diving sake. And a few have the potential for instruction. Why not tailor the agency to reflect that.

As to how it is different: I walked into my dive shop, was sold an OW course and they began selling AOW before I was finished that. After AOW it was EAN, then Rescue with Master diver being suggested during OW. Next on the list DM and instructor. By dive 15 I was AOW having never done a dive outside a course. Fortunately by dive 23 I woke up and got off the treadmill.

I was eager to dive and hung around the shop but unless it was a course there was no interest.. no community. I started with their "buddy list", an out of date piece of paper in the back room and went on to create an internet callout list (with some others) that became quite robust for the region. We could muster divers every weekend and often mid week. The shop then started a club which we morphed the call out list into but that lasted less than a year as it became apparent the shop only saw the club as another means of revenue. Some of us then joined a non affiliated club and have been active there ever since.

In the club we face the same issues though. Many who join are really just interested in vacation diving. Some of us are active local divers and a subset of that is involved in photography. But we don't suggest all who join should follow an active local photography pathway.


RJP, it might be easier to have quality control with a billion pound cake if you did not have a million people all trying to bake it according to their whimsy.

Sure there is room for innovation. Quads should dive, as should the blind, as should children and the elderly. But don't funnel them all through the same introductory course.

I see what I'm thinking as being rather innovative. It accepts that many divers today will not aspire to more than guided vacation diving, and are ok with that. So, sell a course designed specifically for that and don't confuse it with a course that prepares the diver for independent diving. Delay the professional sales pitch for a bit and find a way to create a sense of community post dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes John, that is what PADI could be, but not what it is. It's not about content perse but rather the misapplication of it.

So their plan is exactly your plan but they don't execute it well. Why not?

As for clubs and agencies... I don't know. I look at the local GUE scene and can't help feel they got it right.

That is happening where you live. Why isn't it happening everywhere?

What PADI does wrong is lump every diver into the same pot, and offer the same pathway to all.

How does that path differ from the one you described?

 

[Bob DBF]

Hmm... assuming all the hobbyists leave, the huge cost burden would be shared by a much smaller pool of instructors... which would cause more to leave... which would cause the huge cost burden to be shared by an even smaller pool of instructors... which would cause more to leave...

Hardly a sustainable approach for anyone involved.

Besides... many hobbyist instructors are phenomenal and many full-time instructors are crap.

But then enforcement of the standards should get rid of many of the crap ones. Although, then the huge cost burden would be shared by an even smaller pool of instructors... which would cause more to leave... which would cause the huge cost burden to be shared by an even smaller pool of instructors...

I figure that it would reach an equilibrium with better instructors making better money. Lets face it, any system that wants and aggressively sells me to become a "dive professional" has some serious issues to address.

Or drop the word professional, as the guy saying "ya want fries with that" is more of a professional since he will be monitored, held to standards and make more money at his job than the majority of SCUBA DM's and instructors will make at theirs.

I hold a state licence and could be called professional, the substantial fees, over-site, and ongoing training costs do not deter some from having it as a hobby job, however those that do pay, train, and are monitored equally. You don't get the cert, start working and wait until there is a major problem before anyone checks to see if you are doing your job properly.

As it is, you can see what a dive professional is worth now by how much they are paid, free market and all.



Bob
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There's A Sucker Born Every Minute. -- P T Barnum

 

[KevinNM]

So, what I am saying is: It would be reasonable to expect an instructor to earn a living in a healthy way if they lived in Cozumel (for example), had a steady stream of clients and worked a regular set of hours. Teaching an evening here and there and on your weekends, traveling two or three hours to and from the water and more hours packing and unloading gear, and catching random groups of potential students is not the way to "earn a living". It's a part time job that leads to premature burnout.

The same two instructors who I got most of my training from in 2002/2003 in Albuquerque are still teaching. I know what they do for a living, and it isn't being a dive instructor. But I see them every few weeks out a blue hole (a two hour each way drive) and at the pool on weekends. They like doing it and they are good at it.

Given the instructor/student ratio required I really cannot see anyone expecting to make a good full-time living from being a dive instructor here. Virtually everyone taking a class wants to do it on the weekend, so the total number of hours you have to work is already pretty limited. Even if if you expand it to after work/school during the week it isn't going to be an 9-5 40 hour a week job.

This week I was in Hawaii, diving with Jack's Diving Locker. They have about 40 full-time employees, with 4 medium to big boats that run every day, sometimes 2 trips per day per boat. But the guy I had as instructor for a few days wasn't a full-time instructor, he was primarily a tech in their repair shop. His wife wasn't a full-time instructor either, she was primarily a boat captain. They both had years of experience as instructors inside and outside the US and they were not making a living as full-time scuba instructors, though they were making a living working full-time in the dive industry.

 

[Diver0001]

So their plan is exactly your plan but they don't execute it well. Why not?

Pick me, Pick me!!!

PADI executes it's plan well. Individual instructors are responsible for delivery of the course they are teaching!

The question quickly becomes this: why do individual instructors fail to deliver quality (hint: rhetorical question)

R..

 

[DaleC]

So their plan is exactly your plan but they don't execute it well.

No, they have the same potential. All the building blocks are there. They just need to be more focused on serving each group properly.
As it is, the guy interested in independent diving is grouped with the person who is interested in guided vacation diving and taught to the same standard. Now, is that a guided standard or an independent standard. Then everyone is given the opportunity to enter the professional ranks (what?) before any sort of discrimination or vetting on the part of the agency is involved. Add to that, the focus in the shop is unduly placed on destination or advanced diving with very little attention placed on the basic local recreational experience, where real skills refinement will occur. Could every shop change this Yes. Do they. No Why not. No perceived financial advantage (though there would be a enhancement in diver ability). So again, is the agencies goal the advancement of financial growth or diver ability.

That is happening where you live. Why isn't it happening everywhere?

To me, GUE is too self limiting or restrictive in that regard (though I don't argue with their reasons). Imagine if a purely recreational agency (or one that recognized rec diving as its own activity) like that were formed that allowed more latitude in some areas but still adhered to a solid sense of skill development and community. I know I'd join that group and work within it.

How does that path differ from the one you described?

It recognizes that all divers do not want the same experience and values the choices they make. I disliked the experience of being mentally dismissed because I did not want to pursue a professional pathway or purchase a destination package. It made me feel, as a local rec diver, that I was not worth my agencies time.

BECAUSE... the shop is the agency representative to the diver and that experience is solely dictated by the whimsy of the shop. The agency may be all fantastic on paper but it becomes a matter of chance at the customer delivery level.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI may be very reluctant to say anything that isn't verifiably factual, but the alternative of writing largely from practice to theory isn't very good either. Oh, and I don't want to pick on TDI. I've taken IANTD courses too. Their books are written (and knowing Tom, this might not be far from the truth), like a wine induced stream of consciousness. I've heard they've gotten better since he doesn't write anymore. Back in the day you had to read their books several times to understand the message.

This reminds me of a class I took from one of the many agencies from which I have certifications. Because of unavoidable travel issues, I got the official agency training manual for the course on the same day I started training. We started with a lecture over the key issues in the class. In one instructional area, he described a specific skill that could done one of two ways. He strongly advocated one method over the other, and hw gave a very compelling argument for that preference. Then he sent me home to read the training manual.

In explaining the same skill, the official training manual made the exact opposite recommendation, and it made a very compelling case for that preference.

I brought that up in class the next day, the instructor's immediate response was that I must have misread it. I handed him the text and he read it for himself. He was stunned. He had taught the class many times using that training manual, and no one had ever pointed out that what he was saying in class was the opposite of what it said in the course training manual.

So what? Well, my instructor was the one who wrote that training manual.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2015 at 02:20 PM ----------

No, they have the same potential. All the building blocks are there. They just need to be more focused on serving each group properly.
As it is, the guy interested in independent diving is grouped with the person who is interested in guided vacation diving and taught to the same standard. Now, is that a guided standard or an independent standard.

How different is that really? What are the different skills for each? Shouldn't a diver following a dive guide be able to make independent decisions, or should they be completely in a "trust me" situation?

Then everyone is given the opportunity to enter the professional ranks (what?) before any sort of discrimination or vetting on the part of the agency is involved.

Funny. I seem to remember having to go through training and having to pass assessments in that training in order to become a professional. I didn't just send in the money and get a card.

If you are saying they should be vetted before they can even enroll in an instructor program, how would that be done?

Add to that, the focus in the shop is unduly placed on destination or advanced diving with very little attention placed on the basic local recreational experience, where real skills refinement will occur.
Could every shop change this Yes. Do they. No Why not.

This varies a great deal by location. I am about to head off for my annual winter trip to Florida. The shops I use there are almost 100% focused on local diving. I say "almost" to allow for the possibility that they do offer destination diving. If so, I am unaware of it.

Here where I live, a shop that focused on local diving in the 21 foot deep mudhole that is open all year round and the 34 foot mudhole that is only open less than half the year would go out of business quickly.

To me, GUE is too self limiting or restrictive in that regard (though I don't argue with their reasons). Imagine if a purely recreational agency (or one that recognized rec diving as its own activity) like that were formed that allowed more latitude in some areas but still adhered to a solid sense of skill development and community. I know I'd join that group and work within it.

Can you give one concrete example of what you mean?

It recognizes that all divers do not want the same experience and values the choices they make. I disliked the experience of being mentally dismissed because I did not want to pursue a professional pathway or purchase a destination package. It made me feel, as a local rec diver, that I was not worth my agencies time.

BECAUSE... the shop is the agency representative to the diver and that experience is solely dictated by the whimsy of the shop. The agency may be all fantastic on paper but it becomes a matter of chance at the customer delivery level.

So maybe what an agency should do in order to fill the needs of people who do not want to go on to the instructor level but who do want to learn other skills would be to offer specialty classes that allow divers the total freedom to select what they want to learn when they want to learn it? Is that the sort of thing you are envisioning?

 

[DaleC]

How different is that really? What are the different skills for each? Shouldn't a diver following a dive guide be able to make independent decisions, or should they be completely in a "trust me" situation?

Really, Are you seriously arguing that? Dive planning, gas planning, buddy skills, communications... How about even putting your BC on the tank. Are you asking should they, like in a fantasy world, or do they? How can a vacation diver retain any sort of skill level when they only dive once, twice or three times a year.

Funny. I seem to remember having to go through training and having to pass assessments in that training in order to become a professional. I didn't just send in the money and get a card.

Neither did I. I just think it might be a little more meaningful if all people still in OW weren't being offered the option as something to pursue. It might mean the agency was interested in quality.

If you are saying they should be vetted before they can even enroll in an instructor program, how would that be done?

How about not even bringing up professioal level courses until the diver has logged some experience actually diving outside the class environment and demonstrates some predilection towards teaching other than having a visa card.

This varies a great deal by location. I am about to head off for my annual winter trip to Florida. The shops I use there are almost 100% focused on local diving. I say "almost" to allow for the possibility that they do offer destination diving. If so, I am unaware of it.
Here where I live, a shop that focused on local diving in the 21 foot deep mudhole that is open all year round and the 34 foot mudhole that is only open less than half the year would go out of business quickly.

Exactly my point. How does a local diver refine basic skills in your locale without availing themselves of more courses if the local scene is minimalized. FWIW, I just did a dive on sunday at the local mudhole with a mean depth of 18'. That's after about 1000 dives. I still find it enjoyable, partly because it means I dive weekly and keep my skills current. I may be an odd sort of duck, but I cannot conceive of an agency interested in developing divers which did not encourage regular, active diving.

Can you give one concrete example of what you mean?

About what? GUE being restrictive or a rec agency with similar emphasis on skills and community.

So maybe what an agency should do in order to fill the needs of people who do not want to go on to the instructor level but who do want to learn other skills would be to offer specialty classes that allow divers the total freedom to select what they want to learn when they want to learn it? Is that the sort of thing you are envisioning?

No, not more courses. If you take a course the next step is not to take another course. You need to assimilate the skills you just acquired. What the agency should do is develop a strategy to create a sense of community in which divers who have taken training can feel valued (as divers, not customers) and can refine those skills they recently acquired. Is the agencies job to continually sell products to people who can't determine when they are full or to develop sound basic divers.

What is lacking is that there is no place for the recreational diver in the agency when they are not taking courses. The agency loses that potential to the club setting. And, if they meet someone like me in that club my advice would be to avoid taking any more courses until you really need to, until your diving skill level is bumping up against your knowledge limit. Once the diver steps off the course treadmil the agency voluntarily loses contact and influence with them and often fails to retain them.

.....