Buddy OOA in Challenging Conditions

[Beiji]

The weight on land is a concern for many females, especially petite ones.

Exactly. I'm a little concerned how much effort it takes to haul myself up the ladder with just my present gear.

 

[FritzCat66]

Well, it depends on the diver, and that is not true of many females... I'm quite sure that a 13 cf would be enough gas for many women and a 19 cf would certainly be enough for most, if not all, women doing recreational NDL dives.

All true; I was "painting with too broad a brush" as they say, and I have indeed run into some diver women with remarkably low gas consumption rates.

My earlier comments about sizing a pony apply here: a bailout pony should be enough to get the diver up from typical (or maximum) personal depth doing a normal ascent with all the diver's usual stops, plus some gas for 3-5 minutes or so to work out whatever problem occurred at depth. So, this will vary according to the diver's consumption rate - although some heavier breathing should also be allowed for (obviously, it's some kind of emergency after all). With all those variables, a 13cf is fine for some, while others may need a 30 or 40. Personally, a 19cf works fine for me, although I'm considering moving to a 30 just for extra margin (that would be 25% of my primary cylinder).

I've mentioned this Excel spreadsheet created by another SB user for sizing a pony given all these variables on other threads, but it's worth linking again here: PonybottleSizeChart_V2_1.xls

 

[Ayisha]

Exactly. I'm a little concerned how much effort it takes to haul myself up the ladder with just my present gear.

Beiji, when I first started diving, I had a hard time climbing up ladders in full gear. I wore all my lead (and too much lead) on a weight belt plus the weight of the tank was always pulling me backwards and it was a struggle all the way up. The centre of gravity was too low and too far back. After reducing my lead, I started leaning forward when I went up the ladder, and voila, problem solved. Then I started shifting my lead to trim and front weight pockets and it was never an issue again. Maybe leaning forward on the ladder and shifting some of your weight, which will help to maintain horizontal trim, might help for you...

 

[oncor23]

Well, in your case you still had plenty of gas for the panicky diver in your primary (1000psi is roughly a third of your backgas - even with a typical aluminum 80 you're talking 20+cf or so), while even a full 13cf pony is just barely enough for an ascent from that depth breathing normally. You were right to be concerned that she would use up the pony! You might have just used your octo at first (i.e. both breathing off your primary cylinder).

I am presuming that, generally in these kinds of situations where you are the donor, the other OOA diver is probably more panicky and likely to be breathing harder and using up gas quicker, so if I had as much in my primary cylinder as you had, I would let them breathe that primary tank with the higher capacity, then switched to my pony for myself if I had to once the main cylinder started getting low.

In my case, like I said I backmount my pony, so giving the other diver the whole pony isn't really an option. Sure, in your situation I could give the other diver the pony reg, but the longer 5' hose on my primary reg would give them more room to maneuver than the three-footer on my pony.

What are the hose lengths on your primary reg, your octo, and your pony reg?

Also, just out of curiousity: you say you had 500psi in your main cylinder once you were back on the boat, but how much was left in your pony, do you know?

If you have lot's of air left in your primary tank, then giving the distressed diver your regulator or the octopus may be fine...while you immediately switch to the pony tank. On the other hand, if there's about the same amount of air in both tanks, it's better to give them the pony. I'm leaning towards giving them the pony tank either way, from the start. They are more likely to run out of air than you. If they drain your primary tank...now what? Buddy breathe off your pony reg? On the other hand, if they drain the pony, there are still 2 regs to your primary tank. Hopefully, you are near the surface at that point.

Whichever plan you follow...one of you should be using the pony tank, because if you both are on the primary tank and it runs out...not good.

 

[FritzCat66]

If you have lot's of air left in your primary tank, then giving the distressed diver your regulator or the octopus may be fine...while you immediately switch to the pony tank. On the other hand, if there's about the same amount of air in both tanks, it's better to give them the pony. I'm leaning towards giving them the pony tank either way, from the start. They are more likely to run out of air than you. If they drain your primary tank...now what? Buddy breathe off your pony reg? On the other hand, if they drain the pony, there are still 2 regs to your primary tank. Hopefully, you are near the surface at that point.

Whichever plan you follow...one of you should be using the pony tank, because if you both are on the primary tank and it runs out...not good.

While I can understand that logic, I still think the pony should be reserved until the primary is unusable or getting close to unusable. If you didn't have a pony, you would have to share your primary just like any other single-cylinder diver, so in general I think that's how you should behave as a pony diver unless and until you really need the pony.

As in a solo situation, I think the pony should generally be reserved for yourself under the condition of a failure of your primary. The only thing different about this situation is you know what the "failure" of your primary is - it's that other diver sucking it dry!

While I think it would be wise to switch yourself to the pony before the primary is completely dry - so as to give the other diver more gas and avoid buddy-sharing the pony reg (which I think we can agree we don't want to do) - nevertheless I think the pony modus operandi should remain the same, i.e. to save your own a$$ (ultimately, I want to help the other diver and get us both back safely, but if it really comes down to it, I ain't sacrificing myself...).

Either way, this is an interesting situation and I would like to hear what other pony divers would recommend. Might be worth a separate thread.

EDIT: I have done exactly that, and created this thread over in the Advanced discussion area just to discuss a more hypothetical situation between a pony diver and an OOA non-pony diver.

 

[Doc Harry]

Hi Beiji,

I have always thought that deep wreck diving in the currents of the Florida Keys can be very challenging. I have personally thumbed dives on the descent line because I felt that the conditions were too severe for recreational diving. Sometimes trying to dive a 100-foot deep wreck with a single AL80 is madness.

DAN had a recent article on deep diving. I disagreed with much of the article. DAN's reply to my concerns was that since most OW aren't taught proper deep-dive planning, that DAN should not try to contradict what isn't taught.

For instance, DAN never brought up the topic of rock-bottom gas in deep-dive planning. DAN suggested using strict halves or thirds, instead of using halves or thirds of available gas (after subtracting rock-bottom gas). I felt that this suggestion just perpetuated poor deep dive planning.

DAN also suggested bailing from the wreck in case of gas emergency, and doing a open-water ascent in the current. I felt that this suggestion just complicated bad gas planning with bad dive planning.

Take a look at DAN's article and see what you think.

My only other suggestion to add - the deeper you go, the more often you and your buddy should be checking each other's gas. You have a vested interest in how much gas your buddy has - because (in case of emergency) some of their gas is for you!

Sorry I couldn't join you in Florida for this trip, Beiji, but perhaps we can meet again in Cozumel. Keep me posted on your dive plans.

I'm impressed that you had a pony with you. I've got a 13, too, thinking of bringing it with me on OW recreational dives. I calculated that a 13 could get me up safely from 100 feet.

 

[Beiji]

Hi Beiji,

I have always thought that deep wreck diving in the currents of the Florida Keys can be very challenging. I have personally thumbed dives on the descent line because I felt that the conditions were too severe for recreational diving. Sometimes trying to dive a 100-foot deep wreck with a single AL80 is madness.

DAN had a recent article on deep diving. I disagreed with much of the article. DAN's reply to my concerns was that since most OW aren't taught proper deep-dive planning, that DAN should not try to contradict what isn't taught.

Sorry I couldn't join you in Florida for this trip, Beiji, but perhaps we can meet again in Cozumel. Keep me posted on your dive plans.

I'm impressed that you had a pony with you. I've got a 13, too, thinking of bringing it with me on OW recreational dives. I calculated that a 13 could get me up safely from 100 feet.

Thanks for your response, Harry. It was actually off Miami, and I really don't know if that is normal current for the area or if it just seemed really strong to me because I'm inexperienced diving here. I'll take a look at that article you mentioned if I can find it. BTW, I dove yesterday and today with someone I met in Cozumel during that same trip where I met you and your group.

Beiji, when I first started diving, I had a hard time climbing up ladders in full gear. I wore all my lead (and too much lead) on a weight belt plus the weight of the tank was always pulling me backwards and it was a struggle all the way up. The centre of gravity was too low and too far back. After reducing my lead, I started leaning forward when I went up the ladder, and voila, problem solved. Then I started shifting my lead to trim and front weight pockets and it was never an issue again. Maybe leaning forward on the ladder and shifting some of your weight, which will help to maintain horizontal trim, might help for you...

Ayisha, I figured out today that it has more to do with hand holds. If the railings are hard to reach, than I'm going to struggle. If they are easy to reach, then up I go with just a little help!

 

[TSandM]

If the railings are hard to reach, than I'm going to struggle. If they are easy to reach, then up I go with just a little help!

That's half of it. The rise on the steps, or the last step getting onto the boat itself, is the other half. If the rise is short and there are good handholds, I can climb myself and a set of steel doubles onto the boat with no assistance. If there's a huge last step, or noplace to hold on, I can end up crawling to my station as I did in my trip to FL. That's embarrassing, and utterly unnecessary.

 

[Beiji]

That's half of it. The rise on the steps, or the last step getting onto the boat itself, is the other half. If the rise is short and there are good handholds, I can climb myself and a set of steel doubles onto the boat with no assistance. If there's a huge last step, or noplace to hold on, I can end up crawling to my station as I did in my trip to FL. That's embarrassing, and utterly unnecessary.

Yes, you're right. I hadn't thought about the rise. Still, I can't imagine even being able to stand on my own with steel doubles.

Oh, there's just so much potential for embarrassment in diving! (Mucous face, puking on the crew, falling on the deck . . . )

 

[Ayisha]

That's very true. I have an issue with the rise and the hand-holds as well if they're spaced too far apart. The problem is usually at the top: the distance between the top step and the deck; as well as the top hand-hold being too high for me to reach from the second-highest hand-hold. I have literally stretched myself as much as I absolutely could and still could not reach on a couple of boats, but if I can reach the hand-holds, I can go up pretty effortlessly. I thought it was only me that couldn't reach!

I try to let the captain know so they can be aware of it and think about it for future designs. They often didn't really think about that distance as any issue.

What if, on those boats with a very high top hand-hold, they hang a short rope with a loop or knot at the bottom from the top hand-hold for those of us who are vertically challenged? I suppose it could be an entanglement hazard, but it's not like there aren't other lines around ...