Buddy Descents

[Lorenzoid]

IMHO, on a negative descent where you are attempting to hit a target, it's about communication prior to splashing. If it's a panga, I'm backrolling next to my buddy. I haven't had many situations I couldn't arrange that even on the smallest/largest panga with a bit of communication up front, if I felt it was necessary for the dive. If we're giant striding, we discuss who is going first and it's their responsibility to splash and be in position to watch for the buddy splash even while descending. It's not that hard to descend while still being aware of what's going on around you. If you can't do that, then you may be diving outside your comfort zone.

All I can say is "stuff happens." You have never been on a small boat where the DM says we need people evenly balanced on both rails of the boat, and so he asks one person to move to the other side? Or when giant striding, the second buddy may be delayed after the first buddy has splashed. And then there are things like difficulty equalizing or a piece of gear that came loose that can delay or disorient a buddy. On a negative descent, these things can lead to buddy separate. My buddy and I are going to have a contingency plan.

 

[AdivingBel]

All I can say is "stuff happens." You have never been on a small boat where the DM says we need people evenly balanced on both rails of the boat, and so he asks one person to move to the other side? Or when giant striding, the second buddy may be delayed after the first buddy has splashed. And then there are things like difficulty equalizing or a piece of gear that came loose that can delay or disorient a buddy. On a negative descent, these things can lead to buddy separate. My buddy and I are going to have a contingency plan.

No, I haven't had it happen when it's integral to the dive. If the whole objective of the dive is to hit the target, it's worked out before we splash to our satisfaction or it's a no go. I'm not necessarily talking about your every day Coz drift dive where you're scattered all over the reef . That's why I bolded the part I did. I tend to be far more casual (probably more than I should be) about those. In warm clear water, I don't generally have trouble finding my dive buddy. If I couldn't find him/her I would do what I was trained to do, brief search then surface and deal with it from there. I don't see the need for a contengency plan. There is always another dive. All IMHO.

 

[mmmbelows]

IMHO, on a negative descent where you are attempting to hit a target, it's about communication prior to splashing. If it's a panga, I'm backrolling next to my buddy. I haven't had many situations I couldn't arrange that even on the smallest/largest panga with a bit of communication up front, if I felt it was necessary for the dive. If we're giant striding, we discuss who is going first and it's their responsibility to splash and be in position to watch for the buddy splash even while descending. It's not that hard to descend while still being aware of what's going on around you. If you can't do that, then you may be diving outside your comfort zone.

Exactly. People act as if some of these entries are on the level of Navy Seal teams making water entries at 30mph face first off the sides of a RIB. This is recreational diving, let's keep it in perspective. And if you don't like the way somebody is trying to make you do something on the boat just say FU, we aren't doing that. Again, its recreational diving it's supposed to be fun not stressful, just have a linear path of safety and don't deviate from it based on a dive master or a boat crew member trying to rush you into the water or put you in a situation you don't like. The worst case scenario is you end up back on the dock and sipping a tropical drink at the bar.

 

[mmmbelows]

My buddy and I are going to have a contingency plan.

That's good. I hope it's as simple as just finding each other before descending, because that is the rule that shouldn't be broken if you're going to dive safely as a buddy pair. No descent unless you're in contact with your buddy. If you obey that rule the procedures of how to get to it will work themselves out on every dive, be it joining on the surface and then descending or finding each other in the first 1-10 feet of the water column and then descending, but nobody descends until together.

Or when giant striding, the second buddy may be delayed after the first buddy has splashed. And then there are things like difficulty equalizing or a piece of gear that came loose that can delay or disorient a buddy. On a negative descent, these things can lead to buddy separate.

Those could lead to a separation if you let them, but if you don't descend until together they won't.

And any dive operation that insists on splitting buddy pairs on purpose on an entry with stiff surface current is a idiot of a dive operation, they should be arranging buddy pairs hitting the water at the same time, and if you have to be the ones to tell them so on the dive than so be it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

That's good. I hope it's as simple as just finding each other before descending, because that is the rule that shouldn't be broken if you're going to dive safely as a buddy pair. No descent unless you're in contact with your buddy. . . .

That has always been our rule. It hadn't occurred to me that there could be any other way until the point in this thread at which someone mentioned a divemaster requesting divers meet their buddies on the bottom. That's when I chimed in, because the possibility of such a DM request never occurred to me. To date in my diving career, my buddy and I have always had at least a minute or so to get together on the surface before descending. We have been on an occasional dive where the DM said not to linger on the surface due to the current, but so far I have not faced anything as critical as a "hot drop on a target."

 

[t-mac]

While it sounds like the DMs instructions here were a little extreme, it is not always possible to be in close contact with your buddy at all times. If you are uncomfortable with that, you can decide not to do the dive. I dove a wreck in Thailand a number of times that was situated between a couple of islands. Unless you were at slack tide (rare) there was a raging current -- the kind where if you looked to the side, your mask was gone. No way to wait for your buddy and you really couldn't even look around. The strategy was to enter and quickly get negative, one after the other and grab the mooring line as you are whisked by. If you miss, you bail. You know your buddy is there when you bump into each other on the mooring line. While this may not be ideal, there was no other way to do the dive -- and I wanted to do it. I agree that if it can be avoided, buddies shouldn't be separated, but there are circumstances in which it will happen and we as individuals simply have to assess whether it is an unreasonable personal risk. Here, it seems like the DM could have had a more sensible procedure, but there was a significant risk of buddy separation anyway and it's important to have a plan for that (and be calm if it happens). I'm glad the OP handled it well and that she is ok.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Exactly. People act as if some of these entries are on the level of Navy Seal teams making water entries at 30mph face first off the sides of a RIB. This is recreational diving, let's keep it in perspective. And if you don't like the way somebody is trying to make you do something on the boat just say FU, we aren't doing that. Again, its recreational diving it's supposed to be fun not stressful, just have a linear path of safety and don't deviate from it based on a dive master or a boat crew member trying to rush you into the water or put you in a situation you don't like. The worst case scenario is you end up back on the dock and sipping a tropical drink at the bar.

I don't know if that bolded comment would be the best way to approach the dive operator or crew. To be honest, when working as a DM, I never had someone tell me "FU"... but if they did something like that in response to my directions, they might have gotten punched in the groin (gender appropriate of course) or at a minimum, the person would be sitting out the dive (and not getting a refund).

A good operator will generally have developed a set of protocols that are reasonably safe and effective for the type of diving they are doing. Again, they are used to seeing a wide variety of diver competencies. My advice to a customer who was being directed to do a "hot drop", negative descent or some other activity which they do not understand, or are uncomfortable with or feel is unsafe... then definitely bring this up with the crew ASAP.

A more in depth discussion may reveal that the dive REQUIRES a certain level of skills or competencies, and if you lack those things, then it is better to discover this information BEFORE you endanger yourself or someone else. Possibly the crew can select a different dive site, possibly provide a more detailed explanation or even recommend that you sit this dive out. All of those options are probably better than telling the crew to FO, and doing whatever the hell you please.

I'm serious about this. The worse case scenario might have you getting run over by a boat - not sipping drinks at the bar..Not all dives are fun little baby dives. Some (recreational) dives (in some conditions) ARE stressful and if you don't perform them properly, the consequences can be significant. The attitude you express above may not be wise at all.

For example, we used to hot drop into wrecks in palm beach in 80 or 90 feet of water with a strong current. We would explain the protocol in detail, but basically everyone needs to bail out of the boat as fast as possible and begin a descent immediately. If you can not descend at 50 feet per minute due to ear issues or something else, then you MAY be able to follow above a DM and stay in visual with their bubbles and still make a descent at a slower pace.

We would tell people, if you have a problem and you can't get down fast.. or you get down to 60 or 90 feet and see no wreck and or no people, then look around for a minute and then you MUST come up immediately.. or you will drift off the wreck. Do not stay down and drift...Because everyone is going to stay on the wreck until XX minutes have elapsed and the dive is over.

If you come up quickly, the boat can pick you up and re-drop you for another attempt.

In reality, after you have done it 20 or 100 times it IS easy and stress free, but you gotta perform certain actions in a timely manner. For new divers who have only been in a quarry, it is going to be somewhat of a challenge.

If you have to dick around on the surface, or you can't clear your ears quickly etc. etc. - then sorry... this is not the dive for you when the current is strong.

We had a guy once who missed the wreck, stayed down and just drifted along. 45 minutes later, everyone is on the boat and nobody knows where he is. We search on the surface for 5-10 minutes and conclude he is not there. I re-enter the water, drop to the wreck and swim frantically around searching for bubbles or possibly someone lost in the wreck and find nothing. A terrible feeling..

We found him 3 miles north drifting on the surface.. he just did what he wanted. stayed down for 45 minutes drifting with a 1,5 kt current , It would have been better for everyone if he just said FU at the start of the dive.

I very nearly punched the guy out - after I heard him complain a few hours after the dive that the captain was incompetent and almost lost "him".

 

[mmmbelows]

or are uncomfortable with or feel is unsafe... then definitely bring this up with the crew ASAP.

Isn't that what I said?

A more in depth discussion may reveal that the dive REQUIRES a certain level of skills or competencies, and if you lack those things, then it is better to discover this information BEFORE you endanger yourself or someone else. Possibly the crew can select a different dive site, possibly provide a more detailed explanation or even recommend that you sit this dive out. All of those options are probably better than telling the crew to FO, and doing whatever the hell you please.

Not sure how you can translate what I said into - "doing whatever the hell you please."

A good operator will generally have developed a set of protocols that are reasonably safe and effective for the type of diving they are doing. Again, they are used to seeing a wide variety of diver competencies.

When you get out of Florida and do some international diving, let's take Indonesia for instance, it won't be long before you start wondering where the 'good operators' are. There is no US coast guard certifying vessels and captains, but there are plenty of 'good operators' who's boats burn down to the waterline, end up on reefs and leave divers behind, lost at see for days.

I stopped believing boat captains/crews always know what they are doing my first trip out of the states. I won't just blindly follow anyone's ideas, suggestions or orders without running them through my own internal safety filter first.

How many accident and incident stories start off with "in hindsight we never should have dived that site that day, but the dive master said it was okay..."

 

[gcarter]

While it sounds like the DMs instructions here were a little extreme, it is not always possible to be in close contact with your buddy at all times. If you are uncomfortable with that, you can decide not to do the dive. I dove a wreck in Thailand a number of times that was situated between a couple of islands. Unless you were at slack tide (rare) there was a raging current -- the kind where if you looked to the side, your mask was gone. No way to wait for your buddy and you really couldn't even look around. The strategy was to enter and quickly get negative, one after the other and grab the mooring line as you are whisked by. If you miss, you bail. You know your buddy is there when you bump into each other on the mooring line. While this may not be ideal, there was no other way to do the dive -- and I wanted to do it. I agree that if it can be avoided, buddies shouldn't be separated, but there are circumstances in which it will happen and we as individuals simply have to assess whether it is an unreasonable personal risk. Here, it seems like the DM could have had a more sensible procedure, but there was a significant risk of buddy separation anyway and it's important to have a plan for that (and be calm if it happens). I'm glad the OP handled it well and that she is ok.

If on a mooring line, I would think that the boat could drop a granny line? I am not visualizing how the boat is moored to the line and a drop brings you to it - I am visualizing being whisked away.

 

[gcarter]

I don't know if that bolded comment would be the best way to approach the dive operator or crew. To be honest, when working as a DM, I never had someone tell me "FU"... but if they did something like that in response to my directions, they might have gotten punched in the groin (gender appropriate of course) or at a minimum, the person would be sitting out the dive (and not getting a refund).

A good operator will generally have developed a set of protocols that are reasonably safe and effective for the type of diving they are doing. Again, they are used to seeing a wide variety of diver competencies. My advice to a customer who was being directed to do a "hot drop", negative descent or some other activity which they do not understand, or are uncomfortable with or feel is unsafe... then definitely bring this up with the crew ASAP.

A more in depth discussion may reveal that the dive REQUIRES a certain level of skills or competencies, and if you lack those things, then it is better to discover this information BEFORE you endanger yourself or someone else. Possibly the crew can select a different dive site, possibly provide a more detailed explanation or even recommend that you sit this dive out. All of those options are probably better than telling the crew to FO, and doing whatever the hell you please.

I'm serious about this. The worse case scenario might have you getting run over by a boat - not sipping drinks at the bar..Not all dives are fun little baby dives. Some (recreational) dives (in some conditions) ARE stressful and if you don't perform them properly, the consequences can be significant. The attitude you express above may not be wise at all.

For example, we used to hot drop into wrecks in palm beach in 80 or 90 feet of water with a strong current. We would explain the protocol in detail, but basically everyone needs to bail out of the boat as fast as possible and begin a descent immediately. If you can not descend at 50 feet per minute due to ear issues or something else, then you MAY be able to follow above a DM and stay in visual with their bubbles and still make a descent at a slower pace.

We would tell people, if you have a problem and you can't get down fast.. or you get down to 60 or 90 feet and see no wreck and or no people, then look around for a minute and then you MUST come up immediately.. or you will drift off the wreck. Do not stay down and drift...Because everyone is going to stay on the wreck until XX minutes have elapsed and the dive is over.

If you come up quickly, the boat can pick you up and re-drop you for another attempt.

In reality, after you have done it 20 or 100 times it IS easy and stress free, but you gotta perform certain actions in a timely manner. For new divers who have only been in a quarry, it is going to be somewhat of a challenge.

If you have to dick around on the surface, or you can't clear your ears quickly etc. etc. - then sorry... this is not the dive for you when the current is strong.

We had a guy once who missed the wreck, stayed down and just drifted along. 45 minutes later, everyone is on the boat and nobody knows where he is. We search on the surface for 5-10 minutes and conclude he is not there. I re-enter the water, drop to the wreck and swim frantically around searching for bubbles or possibly someone lost in the wreck and find nothing. A terrible feeling..

We found him 3 miles north drifting on the surface.. he just did what he wanted. stayed down for 45 minutes drifting with a 1,5 kt current , It would have been better for everyone if he just said FU at the start of the dive.

I very nearly punched the guy out - after I heard him complain a few hours after the dive that the captain was incompetent and almost lost "him".

On this dive the drop was to 80+feet in a minute and a half, in a decent St. Lawrence current with my buddy next to me and the buddy pair we were diving with in sight. I logged visibility as "Bad" on this particular dive, and the context is the St. Lawrence, so "Bad" really isn't very good. I logged current as "Strong". In general, St. Lawrence current was quite brisk this last summer.

The point being, yes, once you gain some comfort these quick drops are very doable while keeping your buddy pairs intact.