Buddy breathing

[GreenDiverDown]

I think that BB should be taught.

If for no other reason, should the need arise to BB, both divers will at least know what to expect. Also, learning this skill in an OW course helps increase the student's general comfort in the water. Having to share a reg can help to improve a student's body position and control as well as their buddy awareness and communication. It can help some students relax a bit and realize that they will be alright without a reg in their mouth every second that they're under water. Lots of good things can come from teaching this skill...things that are beyond the skill itself. I do not see it as needlessly over-complicating the training process or as a skill that is unsafe or obsolete and I certainly don't see that teaching this skill will drive numbers of divers away from the certification process and toward diving on their own without training.

Of course, if we would teach donating the reg that's in your mouth while switching to a quality bungeed second that is under your chin, then the likelihood of needing to BB would be reduced. Even then, however, teaching the skill would still have its value.

 

[Xanthro]

I think that BB should be taught.

If for no other reason, should the need arise to BB, both divers will at least know what to expect. Also, learning this skill in an OW course helps increase the student's general comfort in the water. Having to share a reg can help to improve a student's body position and control as well as their buddy awareness and communication. It can help some students relax a bit and realize that they will be alright without a reg in their mouth every second that they're under water. Lots of good things can come from teaching this skill...things that are beyond the skill itself. I do not see it as needlessly over-complicating the training process or as a skill that is unsafe or obsolete and I certainly don't see that teaching this skill will drive numbers of divers away from the certification process and toward diving on their own without training.

Of course, if we would teach donating the reg that's in your mouth while switching to a quality bungeed second that is under your chin, then the likelihood of needing to BB would be reduced. Even then, however, teaching the skill would still have its value.

That's one of the better arguments in favor of teaching Buddy breathing, not for the skill itself, but for the benefits of being comfortable in the water and the secondary skills that are put to use in buddy breathing.

In fact, if buddy breathing had always been taught, I'd support it. However, a large percentage of people don't know how to buddy breath, and thus teaching buddy breathing could be dangerous.

If someone dives with a list of buddies, I'd find it important that at some time they learn buddy breathing, but by definition this group is not the casual couple of times a year diver.

Supposed you teach an OW student how to buddy breath, and that student has the skill down pat. What happens if that student is on a boat trip, has an OOA, and tries to buddy breath with someone who doesn't know the skill? My guess is a fight over the regulator.

A skill that requires the input of two people is not very useful if one of the two isn't trained in the skill. In fact, in the case of buddy breathing, it could even add danger to the situation.

You simply couldn't get already certified divers to go back and learn buddy breathing.

I couldn't agree more about donating your primary. To me it seems the logical choice for a variety of reasons, eventhough it was not how I was taught in class.

Xanthro

 

[Hank49]

Go and study your taxonomy. Chimps are not monkeys. They are more evolved. Xanthro would let monkeys dive, but I would draw the line higher up in the primate family.

OK dweeb, I know chimps are not monkeys. They're more violent and kill their own kind...like us. but I would love to see you try to wrestle your reg back from an animal that is three times as strong as you. Let me know if you do it because I'll make a special trip to wherever you are just to see and I'll place bets that you can't do it...well you can take two breaths give it to the monk...er, chimp and I'll give you 5 to 1 odds you won't get it back.

 

[scubatexastony]

Are you somehow trying to insult me with the paintball reference line?

If your friend had a poor instuctor, perhaps some care should have been taken in finding and evaluating an instuctor before the class was taken.

Is Bren the she in the sentence that has 100' max, yet set her limit on depth to 80'. Did she descend 25% deeper than she wanted? Very confusing.

Xanthro

Just your interest in paint ball brought to mind the idiot that "taught" her class. Like you pointed out, I wish I could have gotten him in the water, he talked a great class. Bren's early dive history (2 1/2 yrs) had the 100' max, upon her own decision, she has raised her bottom max...i.e. know your comfort zone. Still confused?

ps. BTW my friend is also my wife (29 yrs in Oct......we'll be in blue water

 

[miketsp]

When I train someone, they meet my standards before they get a card. My standard is, "would I feel comfortable letting my loved one dive with this yahoo?" For me, that means they need to know BB.

Not to highjack the thread and maybe I'm taking this out of context but I would expect an instructor to be applying the standards of the agency he represents and not his own personal standards.

Obviously many good instructors introduce more material & exercises than required by the agency but a failure to know or perform material & exercises not required by an agency should not be grounds to fail a student.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In fact, if buddy breathing had always been taught, I'd support it. However, a large percentage of people don't know how to buddy breath, and thus teaching buddy breathing could be dangerous.

Well, trim has never beed required but I teach that too. Teaching buddy breathing is not dangerous. What you say here might be true if it was the only response to an OOA taught.

Using the PADI course as an example. Buddy breathing is optional. The rank buddy breathing in their list of OOA responses. Therefore, it can be taught withing the context of the course and even the students who haven't been required to actually practice it are aware of it's existance and they have answered test questions to demonstrate that they know when it's to be used.

Supposed you teach an OW student how to buddy breath, and that student has the skill down pat. What happens if that student is on a boat trip, has an OOA, and tries to buddy breath with someone who doesn't know the skill? My guess is a fight over the regulator.

For the sake of discussion lets go at this in the context of a PADI trained diver. ok?

per the PADI text, knowledge reviews, quizes and test...

First the diver (if out of air as apposed to low on air) should attempt to share air using the buddies alternate. If the buddy is too far away they should attempt a ESA. If the buddy is close enough but the surface is not and/or the buddies alternate is unusable or not there, the next choice is buddy breathing. The last choice is a buoyannt emergency ascent.

So, while PADI doesn't feel that they need to require buddy breathing to be taught they give the instructor the option and the achedemics of it is taught to every one.

A fight over the reg may turn out better than for the OOA diver just to give up and die peacefully because they don't know they have another option or worse just take the reg with the intention of keeping it and not even think of sharing it.

A skill that requires the input of two people is not very useful if one of the two isn't trained in the skill. In fact, in the case of buddy breathing, it could even add danger to the situation.

I disagree again. 2 clueless divers is way worse than one. I've seen that first hand.

But...what about buddy skills? Most divers are taught diddly about being a good buddy. Should we stop teaching every one because a team requires at least 2 divers? Is 2 bad buddies some how better than one?

You simply couldn't get already certified divers to go back and learn buddy breathing.

There's no need to.

One of the first things I have a student do as part of a pre-assessment before I start a continueing ed class is to share air with a buddy (midwater of course).

Have you any idea how terrible most divers are at it? The way diving is taught now, if you do need help from a buddy you may have a real problem.

I couldn't agree more about donating your primary. To me it seems the logical choice for a variety of reasons, eventhough it was not how I was taught in class.

Xanthro

This brings up another issue and that is the whole method that's commonly taught just doesn't work very well. That would be far more obvious except for the fact that on most dives there just aren't any OOAs.

The safety record of diving, in fact, is is pretty good because usually nothing drastic happems. However, when things do happen, divers are more often not able to cope and the things that get them killed are often little things that probably shouldn't even have ruined their dive.

 

[Jason B]

However, a large percentage of people don't know how to buddy breath, and thus teaching buddy breathing could be dangerous.

But if you teach buddy breathing a large percentage will know how to buddy breathe. Where exactly is the danger at...is it removing the regulator from ones mouth that is creating this danger? Regs get kicked out of divers mouths everyday. Is it the fear that they won't return the regulator? What is it, I don't see it.

jason

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not to highjack the thread and maybe I'm taking this out of context but I would expect an instructor to be applying the standards of the agency he represents and not his own personal standards.

Obviously many good instructors introduce more material & exercises than required by the agency but a failure to know or perform material & exercises not required by an agency should not be grounds to fail a student.

which is exactly why I dumped one of the agencies I used to teach for. It's very possible for a diver to meet that agencies standards without them being some one I would certify or even get in OW water with.

The accuracy of your statement though depends on the agency. PADI doesn't let you add to the class (there are ways though) but other agencies only set the minimum and do encourage the instructor to set higher requirements.

 

[Hank49]

which is exactly why I dumped one of the agencies I used to teach for. It's very possible for a diver to meet that agencies standards without them being some one I would certify or even get in OW water with.

The accuracy of your statement though depends on the agency. PADI doesn't let you add to the class (there are ways though) but other agencies only set the minimum and do encourage the instructor to set higher requirements.

Hi Mike,

I notice in many of your posts that you're not happy with the training standards of one of the agencies. I"ve been thinking about this and maybe you can shed some light on it. Do you think it's much easier to teach an OW class in clear, warm water than say, in a quarry? I ask this becaue, although I have limited teaching experience, but all in clear, warm water, almost all the students seemed to do well after completion of the standards and getting their cert. On the other hand, I have a brother in law who was certified in Ohio a few years back, went to Florida for the "open water" dives in some spring and didn't like it at all. He said they went down and it got all silted, there was nothing to see...and he did not want to take the reg out of his mouth uder those conditions. He was scared and uncomfortable. But when he came to Belize and I took him snorkeling, he couldn't wait to try scuba again. I guess my question is, is it the standards themsleves? Or the conditions in which they're taught that are not allowing for comfortable learning conditions? Hank

 

[Deo]

Mike, how many pool sessions does it take on average to teach an OW student to perform skills hovering mid-water (I assume that's at least mask removal/replacement and air share)?

Disclaimer: I'm really interested in the answer, this is not intended as a loaded question.