Breathing technique

[Nemrod]

Yes, I should not have said it that way as it did not convey my meaning accurately, I meant that the "panting" looks to a casual observer almost like hyperventilation. I did not mean the physical condition thereof. Sorry, thank you for clarifying. Good point, dyspnea is the term.

What I wanted to convey is that a low SAC rate results from a few things: 1) good breathing technique is important but, 2) getting the trim and buoyancy control in order and 3) learning to be still in the water and conserve motion and finally 4) getting the body fit and in shape and on weight.

James

 

[Angelo Farina]

Yes, I should not have said it that way as it did not convey my meaning accurately, I meant that the "panting" looks to a casual observer almost like hyperventilation. I did not mean the physical condition thereof. Sorry, thank you for clarifying. Good point, dyspnea is the term.

James

Ok, thanks.
I was not sure to dare correcting this minor thing to someone with such a long experience as you.
I did this just as the physiological facts behind the two apparently similar, but profoundly diverse cases of dyspnea and hyperventilation are important for understanding the importance of minimizing CO2 accumulation.
In a case of hyperventilation, usually it is recommended to breath inside a paper bag, so recycling the same air your amount of CO2 comes up.
Of course this is exactly what should NOT be done in case of dyspnea, when instead, if available, it could be useful to give pure oxygen. Albeit the cause of dyspnea, underwater, is never the lack of oxygen, it is the accumulation of CO2 which triggers the uncontrolled short-cycle fast venting.
The breathing control training I had when young was tailored exactly for avoiding the risk of dyspnea.
It also reduces SAC, but that was never the goal...

1) that good breathing technique is important but,
2) so is getting the trim and buoyancy control in order and
3) learning to be still in the water and conserve motion and finally
4) getting the body fit and in shape and on weight.

Regarding your 4 numbered points, I agree entirely! I would add a fifth one:
5) reduce drag and friction, employing streamlined equipment, and learn kicking efficiently using fins of proper length and stiffness for your legs. This allows to move in water, when needed, with minimum effort and maximum speed. Usually people coming from freediving (as you and me) already master this, but often I see scuba-only divers using equipment which looks like a Christmas tree and crap fins, using them improperly, resulting in a tremendous effort for following me.
They often keep their arms partially extended, and not in line with the direction of motion, causing unneeded additional friction. They kick flexing too much their knees, and using only half of the fin surface (the upper face when alternate kicking, the lower face when frog kicking), so getting half of the possible thrust for a given muscular effort.
I did always think that only a decent freediver can become a good scuba diver, you should learn swimming underwater while freediving.

 

[BlueTrin]

Ok, thanks.
I was not sure to dare correcting this minor thing to someone with such a long experience as you.
I did this just as the physiological facts behind the two apparently similar, but profoundly diverse cases of dyspnea and hyperventilation are important for understanding the importance of minimizing CO2 accumulation.
In a case of hyperventilation, usually it is recommended to breath inside a paper bag, so recycling the same air your amount of CO2 comes up.
Of course this is exactly what should NOT be done in case of dyspnea, when instead, if available, it could be useful to give pure oxygen. Albeit the cause of dyspnea, underwater, is never the lack of oxygen, it is the accumulation of CO2 which triggers the uncontrolled short-cycle fast venting.
The breathing control training I had when young was tailored exactly for avoiding the risk of dyspnea.
It also reduces SAC, but that was never the goal...


Regarding your 4 numbered points, I agree entirely! I would add a fifth one:
5) reduce drag and friction, employing streamlined equipment, and learn kicking efficiently using fins of proper length and stiffness for your legs. This allows to move in water, when needed, with minimum effort and maximum speed. Usually people coming from freediving (as you and me) already master this, but often I see scuba-only divers using equipment which looks like a Christmas tree and crap fins, using them improperly, resulting in a tremendous effort for following me.
They often keep their arms partially extended, and not in line with the direction of motion, causing unneeded additional friction. They kick flexing too much their knees, and using only half of the fin surface (the upper face when alternate kicking, the lower face when frog kicking), so getting half of the possible thrust for a given muscular effort.
I did always think that only a decent freediver can become a good scuba diver, you should learn swimming underwater while freediving.

How do you use the upper face of the fin when frog kicking ?

 

[Protondecay123]

So, I've been diving for a couple of years and have logged 72 dives. I have always been comfortable underwater and can also perform decent freediving. When swimming in the sea for fun I'm ok with going down to 10 meters to explore and hold my breath for a minute, comfortably coming back up.

Now, I could never really understand what the proper breathing "technique" is for advanced and technical diving. Sure, during OW courses you're told to "just breath normally" but for most beginning divers that easily results in SAC rates of 25l/m or 0.88cfm. And holding your breath is a big NO NO (I know it's mainly because of pulmonary expansion and CO2 buildup). Also "breathing normally" is a pretty subjective statement seeing that above water we don't breathe with our mouth.

This is pretty confusing to me because it is widely accepted that in order to transition into tech one needs a "good" SAC rate. But I honestly feel like "breathing normally" is not going to get you there.
I have had conversations with tech divers who laugh at the "don't hold your breath" rule of rec diving and have SACs of 7l/m or 0.25cfm. One guy even told me that blowing bubbles when taking the reg out during courses is just for the instructor's sake and it's better to just hold your breath in real life.
I also had conversations with other tech divers who say to forget about tech if you're holding your breath.

So Double U Tee Eff? What is one supposed to do?

My SAC averages pretty good at 10l/m or 0.35l/m but to reach that I have to consciously relax my breathing and sometimes "hold" my breath.
Also I have proper trim/buoyancy and finning technique to minimize unnecessary movement, never use my hands, dive streamlined to reduce drag etc...
What is one supposed to do in order to "breathe properly" underwater?

Actually breathing technique is very important. I know of some divers who actually use yogic breathing techniques to improve their SAC and RMV. A pertinent discussion is available in the chapter "Breathing" in this book. It's much more nuanced than this but basically inhale starting with the diaphragm and exhale by releasing the top. Also controlling your breathing can keep you out of panic in stressful situations. The Six Skills and Other Discussions

 

[Mike1967]

10l/m

Not sure what the problem is

 

[Mike1967]

inspiratory pause

The pause helps my SAC rate a LOT but the longer the pause the more I move up and down in the water, obviously. What can you do to counteract that?

 

[PfcAJ]

So, I've been diving for a couple of years and have logged 72 dives. I have always been comfortable underwater and can also perform decent freediving. When swimming in the sea for fun I'm ok with going down to 10 meters to explore and hold my breath for a minute, comfortably coming back up.

Now, I could never really understand what the proper breathing "technique" is for advanced and technical diving. Sure, during OW courses you're told to "just breath normally" but for most beginning divers that easily results in SAC rates of 25l/m or 0.88cfm. And holding your breath is a big NO NO (I know it's mainly because of pulmonary expansion and CO2 buildup). Also "breathing normally" is a pretty subjective statement seeing that above water we don't breathe with our mouth.

This is pretty confusing to me because it is widely accepted that in order to transition into tech one needs a "good" SAC rate. But I honestly feel like "breathing normally" is not going to get you there.
I have had conversations with tech divers who laugh at the "don't hold your breath" rule of rec diving and have SACs of 7l/m or 0.25cfm. One guy even told me that blowing bubbles when taking the reg out during courses is just for the instructor's sake and it's better to just hold your breath in real life.
I also had conversations with other tech divers who say to forget about tech if you're holding your breath.

So Double U Tee Eff? What is one supposed to do?

My SAC averages pretty good at 10l/m or 0.35l/m but to reach that I have to consciously relax my breathing and sometimes "hold" my breath.
Also I have proper trim/buoyancy and finning technique to minimize unnecessary movement, never use my hands, dive streamlined to reduce drag etc...
What is one supposed to do in order to "breathe properly" underwater?

I’m a tech diver.

just breath normally.

low sac rates come from being still, and efficient when you can’t be still.

 

[1atm]

I’m a tech diver.

just breath normally.

low sac rates come from being still, and efficient when you can’t be still.

This. I‘m nowhere near the level AJ is, but I do dive caves and Trimix

Breathing techniques is the wrong focus, anything else than normal is worse. As soon as you consciously try to influence it, you’re headed the wrong way.

Instead, focus on diving skills: buoyancy, trim, propulsion, equipment streamlining.

Buoyancy: if you’re not neutrally buoyant, you need to spend extra energy to not sink (or rise), which translates into more movement thus higher SAC. Check what happens when you are perfectly still, zero movement of fins or hands ... do you stay neutral?

Trim: perfect trim makes you a lot more streamlined when swimming, so less energy needed. It also makes you more stable vertically (makes buoyancy easier), so less energy needed to correct/compensate.

Propulsion: it’s amazing how inefficient new divers fin kicks sometimes are. In my intro cave class our instructor demonstrated to us that he needs one kick for every 6-7 of us students. That applies to forward propulsion, but also backward or turning. Using correct technique with fins (no hands) is much more efficient

Equipment: less streamlined equipment causes more drag and needs more energy. Improper weighting, ie too much lead, mean more energy needed to push the lead around. Sometimes this is compounded by equipment: that plush and padded BCD that looks so comfy in the shop, adds zero comfort in the water. But it does add positive buoyancy that you need to offset with more lead and thus more energy ...

Other than just diving more, Id say a an introductory tech course will teach you all of the above. Eg GUE fundamentals, Intro to tech, etc

 

[Angelo Farina]

How do you use the upper face of the fin when frog kicking ?

I never frog kick, I consider this an obsolete technique, after the horizontal scissor kick was invented, approximately 20 years ago. This works better with long freediving fins, while frog kicking requires shorter and rigid blades...
But we are going off topic here, breathing technique has little connection with kicking (apart going to dyspnea if kicking inefficiently, which was my point).

 

[Angelo Farina]

The pause helps my SAC rate a LOT but the longer the pause the more I move up and down in the water, obviously. What can you do to counteract that?

Probably you just have a large vital volume, so the buoyancy excursion between full and empty lungs is large.
The trick, indeed, so to make you neutral with the lungs full of air (working with your BCD). In no part of the respiratory cycle you must become positive!
You should spend most of the time in this situation, either being in inspiratory pause (for just 4-5 s max), or, for a much longer time, while you are inhaling very slowly or exhaling very slowly, with the lungs almost full. Instead you should stay only a very short time with the lungs almost empty, as this is the less efficient part of your respiratory cycle, during which gas exchanges in your lungs are minimal, so better make this very fast, squeeze quickly out your polluted air from the lungs, and inhale quickly clean air for at least half of your vital capacity. Then slow down and continue very slowly to fill them up...
With this strategy, for most of the time your have perfectly neutral buoyancy, and just for a couple of seconds (every 30, or so) you become strongly negative. This time is short enough that you will not descend significantly.