Breaking news from the whale wars

[MauiScubaSteve]

Is it not true that Japan signed a Treaty that recognized the IWC as the authority responsible for whaling?

 

[Sas]

Is it not true that Japan signed a Treaty that recognized the IWC as the authority responsible for whaling?

I could not find this as part of the treaty. Which article are you referring to?

The Antarctic Treaty, 1959 - Australian Antarctic Division Here is the full text.

Even if they have signed something to that effect, this means that they still only need to go by the guidelines of the IWC which are not backed up by treaty. Any country can leave the IWC (and some have), any country can object to an agreement from the IWC and therefore not be bound to it (even if they remain in the organisation), and even if they do not opt out, if they do not follow the agreement there is no penalty for this.

 

[Sas]

Ok here are the arguments against whaling in the Antarctic as I see them:

-it's illegal - no it is not

-it's cruel - sure, and this is a valid argument... if you do not consume animal products yourself (if you do then it is hypocritical to argue this point)

-whales are smart therefore they should not be killed - there is no evidence of whale intelligence and also smartness applies to other animals that people consume such as pigs and octopuses

-whales are cute and I like to anthropomorphise them - irrational argument

-whaling is not economical as it affects industries that require whales to be alive such as whale watching - this can be countered by the fact that whales affect fish stocks negatively, whale watching is done in areas that are not whaled, and that there is no proper CBA done on whaling versus whale watching/related activities

-whale meat is unsafe - so is eating lots of things, but adults should be able to make their own choices about that

-whaling is unsustainable - some forms of whaling are unsustainable and I definitely agree that they should not take place. The whaling in the Antarctic of Minke whales is sustainable, however.

Anything I have missed?

 

[OldNSalty]

Ok here are the arguments against whaling in the Antarctic as I see them:

-it's illegal - no it is not

Agreed. It is not illegal.

-it's cruel - sure, and this is a valid argument... if you do not consume animal products yourself (if you do then it is hypocritical to argue this point)

Just because your own personal philosophy isn’t sufficiently developed enough to draw a distinction without a conflict does not mean that others are not able to. In fact, given that you admitted to being an ethical relativist implies to me that you really haven’t formed a complex personal philosophy.

-whales are smart therefore they should not be killed - there is no evidence of whale intelligence and also smartness applies to other animals that people consume such as pigs and octopuses

I don’t believe this is an established fact. I am not a marine biologist but I suspect that most of the research points to whales being intelligent. I also think it is more than just simple intelligence. Whales, unlike the other 2 animals you referenced have very complex social structures. I have no doubt that whales come much closer to approaching ‘personhood ‘ then any of the creatures you are comparing them to.
Because of this, I think the issue of whaling is much more complex then the practice of culling dear populations but that is just me.

-whales are cute and I like to anthropomorphise them - irrational argument

It is an irrational argument but I don’t recall anyone making it. Then again, it has been nearly 1000 post.

-whaling is not economical as it affects industries that require whales to be alive such as whale watching - this can be countered by the fact that whales affect fish stocks negatively, whale watching is done in areas that are not whaled, and that there is no proper CBA done on whaling versus whale watching/related activities

I think you missed the point of the economics argument as it had nothing to do with whale watching. I believe it had a lot to do with ‘why would you go after a source of food that is too expensive to attain?’
The question is an interesting one as it goes to motivation. Whale hunting to the Japanese is getting close to trophy hunting-something you yourself said you were against. Regardless, most people don’t care if you elect to waste your money.

-whale meat is unsafe - so is eating lots of things, but adults should be able to make their own choices about that

I have never heard that whale meat might be unsafe but I agree that it is not important.

-whaling is unsustainable - some forms of whaling are unsustainable and I definitely agree that they should not take place. The whaling in the Antarctic of Minke whales is sustainable, however.
?

As far as we know.

Anything I have missed?

It’s been a 1000 post so probably.

 

[Sas]

Agreed. It is not illegal.

Just because your own personal philosophy isn’t sufficiently developed enough to draw a distinction without a conflict does not mean that others are not able to. In fact, given that you admitted to being an ethical relativist implies to me that you really haven’t formed a complex personal philosophy.

I have a personal philosophy, and try to be consistent (but it is difficult, as it is for most people whether they are aware of this or not). I am not an ethical relativist in all areas actually, but I don't think there are many areas in life where there are moral absolutes (for example, animal rights).

I don’t believe this is an established fact. I am not a marine biologist but I suspect that most of the research points to whales being intelligent. I also think it is more than just simple intelligence. Whales, unlike the other 2 animals you referenced have very complex social structures. I have no doubt that whales come much closer to approaching ‘personhood ‘ then any of the creatures you are comparing them to.
Because of this, I think the issue of whaling is much more complex then the practice of culling dear populations but that is just me.

Actually there is little evidence one way or another. Even if they are smart, I don't think that is relevant personally. I think anything that is non-human and not endangered is fair game for eating, personally. I am quite sure that if whales were smarter than us, they'd be harpooning us from the ocean for dinner. That's the way the world works.

I think you missed the point of the economics argument as it had nothing to do with whale watching. I believe it had a lot to do with ‘why would you go after a source of food that is too expensive to attain?’
The question is an interesting one as it goes to motivation. Whale hunting to the Japanese is getting close to trophy hunting-something you yourself said you were against. Regardless, most people don’t care if you elect to waste your money.

No I am aware of that point but that is something that is judged by the Japanese government - as to whether they think it is economically viable, which they seem to think so. I am not sure their whaling is trophy hunting (it could end up that way for sure) but there is a demand for whale meat locally for sure (Japan imports whale meat for example) I have said a number of times, no whaling is preferable for me. However, the more that SS harrass the whalers and the more that Japan feels its soveregnity is challenged, the less likely they will be to lower catches. I think the most ideal situation is for them to be allowed to commercially whale, but be given small quotas. That way they get what they want and more whales end up alive.

 

[OldNSalty]

No I am aware of that point but that is something that is judged by the Japanese government - as to whether they think it is economically viable, which they seem to think so. I am not sure their whaling is trophy hunting (it could end up that way for sure) but there is a demand for whale meat locally for sure (Japan imports whale meat for example) I have said a number of times, no whaling is preferable for me. However, the more that SS harrass the whalers and the more that Japan feels its soveregnity is challenged, the less likely they will be to lower catches. I think the most ideal situation is for them to be allowed to commercially whale, but be given small quotas. That way they get what they want and more whales end up alive.

Agreed.

 

[ONESPEED]

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think anything that is non-human and not endangered is fair game for eating, personally.

See, now here's where many people digress from your way of looking at things. If deer hunters were killing and eating bambi, people would be harassing the deer hunters. Even killing bambi's mom before bambi is able to survive without mom is pretty despicable in my book and not what I call sustainable harvest. One of the images SS gave us this whale hunt season was a Minke mother and calf being hauled up the processing ramp. Earlier you spoke of cultures that perhaps eat cat; but what about kittens and a nursing mother cat?

I am quite sure that if whales were smarter than us, they'd be harpooning us from the ocean for dinner. That's the way the world works.

Here again, your way of looking at this is not even close to how everybody else necessarily looks at it. There are many people that do not equate smarter with making tools to kill and eat animals that live in a totally different environment than we do. How can you be sure that one of the longest evolved beings on the planet hasn't evolved beyond the barbaric state of evolution that seems to rank the ability to kill and eat something as being smarter than that something. More barbaric for sure but not necessarily more intelligent as I see it. A shark sometimes eats a whale but that does not mean the shark is smarter than the whale does it? Which animals have the largest brains on the planet?

Dolphins have shown the ability to recognize pregnancy just days after insemination, and since they communicate with the same tools they use to sonar the body and see the days old infant, who is to say the conversation between the society and the newest member doesn't start well before birth. There is even a decent possibility telepathy is used, because in some cooperative hunting the clicks and squeaks stop for the sneaking up part, yet they still seem to work in concert. Below is a picture of a pregnant spinner dolphin, followed by a bunch of younger spinners. Who is to say mom and friends were not giving the unborn baby it's first experience of human on scooter with a combined mental imaging telepathy? What is smart?

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[wardric]

See, now here's where many people digress from your way of looking at things. If deer hunters were killing and eating bambi, people would be harassing the deer hunters. Even killing bambi's mom before bambi is able to survive without mom is pretty despicable in my book and not what I call sustainable harvest. One of the images SS gave us this whale hunt season was a Minke mother and calf being hauled up the processing ramp. Earlier you spoke of cultures that perhaps eat cat; but what about kittens and a nursing mother cat?



Here again, your way of looking at this is not even close to how everybody else necessarily looks at it. There are many people that do not equate smarter with making tools to kill and eat animals that live in a totally different environment than we do. How can you be sure that one of the longest evolved beings on the planet hasn't evolved beyond the barbaric state of evolution that seems to rank the ability to kill and eat something as being smarter than that something. More barbaric for sure but not necessarily more intelligent as I see it. A shark sometimes eats a whale but that does not mean the shark is smarter than the whale does it? Which animals have the largest brains on the planet?

Dolphins have shown the ability to recognize pregnancy just days after insemination, and since they communicate with the same tools they use to sonar the body and see the days old infant, who is to say the conversation between the society and the newest member doesn't start well before birth. There is even a decent possibility telepathy is used, because in some cooperative hunting the clicks and squeaks stop for the sneaking up part, yet they still seem to work in concert. Below is a picture of a pregnant spinner dolphin, followed by a bunch of younger spinners. Who is to say mom and friends were not giving the unborn baby it's first experience of human on scooter with a combined mental imaging telepathy? What is smart?

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How about veal? lamb?

Now, if I follow you, we should protect intelligent creatures and dont give a damm about stupid ones.

Forget it. Pigs are mighty intelligent but I loooooove bacon, ham, pork chops.....

mmmmMMMMMMmmmmm, bacon.....

 

[Sas]

See, now here's where many people digress from your way of looking at things. If deer hunters were killing and eating bambi, people would be harassing the deer hunters. Even killing bambi's mom before bambi is able to survive without mom is pretty despicable in my book and not what I call sustainable harvest. One of the images SS gave us this whale hunt season was a Minke mother and calf being hauled up the processing ramp. Earlier you spoke of cultures that perhaps eat cat; but what about kittens and a nursing mother cat?

Well I never said cats, I said dogs But, moving right along, given cats are not close to being endangered, I see no issue with eating cat, or baby cat, or nursing cats. I wouldn't eat them myself as I love cats and have had them as pets. But I wouldn't stop others doing so (unless it was my own cat or something).

I don't know the status of deers but if they are not endangered and hunting of them is done sustainably, then again, if people want to eat deer or bambi, or bambi's mum, I'm not going to complain about it because I like to eat baby lambs and perhaps pigs (I do not know the age of the pigs when they are harvested for bacon).

Here again, your way of looking at this is not even close to how everybody else necessarily looks at it.

I know, and that is because they are wrong. I'd rather be right, than popular.

There are many people that do not equate smarter with making tools to kill and eat animals that live in a totally different environment than we do.

Sure, but I was more referring to our status at the top of the food chain. We haven't always been and probably won't always be. If whales were the top, they'd be eating us if we were tasty to them.

How can you be sure that one of the longest evolved beings on the planet hasn't evolved beyond the barbaric state of evolution that seems to rank the ability to kill and eat something as being smarter than that something.

Whales kill and eat plenty of critters actually so they haven't evolved beyond killing and eating things so your argument doesn't work with whales.

More barbaric for sure but not necessarily more intelligent as I see it. A shark sometimes eats a whale but that does not mean the shark is smarter than the whale does it? Which animals have the largest brains on the planet?

Well I've never thought smartness/size of brain/etc should factor into whether something is eaten or not so this point doesn't really make any point to me even if it holds. I think humans have a loyalty to their species, not other species.

Dolphins have shown the ability to recognize pregnancy just days after insemination, and since they communicate with the same tools they use to sonar the body and see the days old infant, who is to say the conversation between the society and the newest member doesn't start well before birth. There is even a decent possibility telepathy is used, because in some cooperative hunting the clicks and squeaks stop for the sneaking up part, yet they still seem to work in concert. Below is a picture of a pregnant spinner dolphin, followed by a bunch of younger spinners. Who is to say mom and friends were not giving the unborn baby it's first experience of human on scooter with a combined mental imaging telepathy? What is smart?

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None of the last paragraph is proven one way or another. The topic is not dolphins but even if they can use telepathy, are super smart and super awesome, if people want to eat them and it is done sustainably, then I see no issue with this. It would be hypocritical for me to say otherwise given I like eating other tasty meat products as well as wearing animal products like leather.

All this being said, as soon as they can make meat in a lab without the use of an animal (or just a scraping of cells or whatever), I will give up eating actual animals and then become an anti-whaling person. I know it is cruel how meat/cheese/eggs is obtained, but I am too lazy and meat + cheese taste too good for me to become vegan. Most people are the same as me, but many will not admit it.