BP/W question re: New Divers

[Blackwood]

I'm a new diver, and I'm looking at getting some equipment. I'll primarily be diving locally, so travel isn’t a big issue for me (yet). I’ve been absorbing a lot of the information regarding the benefits of BP/W setups versus jacket-style BCDs, and it has brought up a few questions. They’ve probably been answered, but there is so much information to sort through here I thought I’d just ask.

First: In a few places I’ve read that BP/W setups aren’t necessarily good for beginners. Why might that be? If they make it easier to maintain horizontal attitude, streamline, customize, etc., wouldn’t that make them better for beginners? Is the only “hard” thing about them knowing how to set them up (considering that most jacket-style BCDs are “all inclusive” and thus don’t require prior knowledge)?

Second: If BP/W setups are so superior, why do the vast majority of recreational divers use jackets? Is it a simple question of marketing or is there something I haven’t learned yet?



As a professional engineer, I’m all for efficiency and minimizing failure points. I’ve test driven a couple BP/W setups and a few jackets. Thus far, I am unable to say, “wow, THIS is much better than THAT, or THAT is much harder to use than THIS.” That's probably because I am inexperienced, but given my personal philosophies towards life, I’m leaning towards purchasing a BP/W setup. Am I getting myself into something too early? Should I, as a beginner, look more closely at jackets than backplates?

Thanks, and sorry if I repeated threads.

(note, I put this in DIR because the Equip/BC forum seems more general and I wanted to ask DIR-ers, but feel free to move the thread if it's in the wrong spot).

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm a new diver, and I'm looking at getting some equipment. I'll primarily be diving locally, so travel isn’t a big issue for me (yet). I’ve been absorbing a lot of the information regarding the benefits of BP/W setups versus jacket-style BCDs, and it has brought up a few questions. They’ve probably been answered, but there is so much information to sort through here I thought I’d just ask.

First: In a few places I’ve read that BP/W setups aren’t necessarily good for beginners. Why might that be? If they make it easier to maintain horizontal attitude, streamline, customize, etc., wouldn’t that make them better for beginners? Is the only “hard” thing about them knowing how to set them up (considering that most jacket-style BCDs are “all inclusive” and thus don’t require prior knowledge)?

Second: If BP/W setups are so superior, why do the vast majority of recreational divers use jackets? Is it a simple question of marketing or is there something I haven’t learned yet?



As a professional engineer, I’m all for efficiency and minimizing failure points. I’ve test driven a couple BP/W setups and a few jackets. Thus far, I am unable to say, “wow, THIS is much better than THAT, or THAT is much harder to use than THIS.” That's probably because I am inexperienced, but given my personal philosophies towards life, I’m leaning towards purchasing a BP/W setup. Am I getting myself into something too early? Should I, as a beginner, look more closely at jackets than backplates?

Thanks, and sorry if I repeated threads.

(note, I put this in DIR because the Equip/BC forum seems more general and I wanted to ask DIR-ers, but feel free to move the thread if it's in the wrong spot).

Hi Blackwood,

In my experience, much of the "BP&W's are bad for beginners" sentiment springs from too sources:

The first is the LDS owner who really believes this, usually based on zero personal experience, and lots of myths and mis-information, fear of the unknown. These folks usually are knowledgeable about what they do sell, and have a greater confidence that you will be a happy satisfied customer if they sell you what they understand.

(Believe it or not, as a manufacturer of BP&W's , on more than one occasion, I have walked into a Dive Shop with a BP&W, and nobody knew what it was, how it worked etc. The level of ignorance is hugh)

The second group is a bit more troubling, and that's the group that wants you to be a "Serial" buyer. First an "entry level BC", then an Upgraded BC, then a "TECH BC", then maybe a BP&W if and when you choose to try doubles.

If you start in a good quality BP&W, 'bout all the additional goods you might need is a doubles wing, if and when that time comes.

You are asking the right questions. Good luck



Tobin

 

[Spoon]

i for one just started diving recently. i have done lots of research, asked for many opinions on the issue of backplate style vs. jacket. in the end i decided to get the backplate style. let me tell you this, "its the easiest thing to use!!!" no frills, just minimalist equipment that anyone can learn and master. very simple and not as cumbersome as those buck-rogers style jacket bcs.

ive used the backplate from my very first dive til current and honestly i have never been happier. in the end you will eventually have to make that decision. let me however give you one piece of advice, go get other peoples opinions, do your research and please get the backplate style! trust me you wont be sorry. good luck

 

[OE2X]

First: In a few places I’ve read that BP/W setups aren’t necessarily good for beginners. Why might that be? If they make it easier to maintain horizontal attitude, streamline, customize, etc., wouldn’t that make them better for beginners? Is the only “hard” thing about them knowing how to set them up (considering that most jacket-style BCDs are “all inclusive” and thus don’t require prior knowledge)

You answered your question rather well here.

Second: If BP/W setups are so superior, why do the vast majority of recreational divers use jackets? Is it a simple question of marketing or is there something I haven’t learned yet?

It is what everyone is taught in. Sort of the one size fits all deal. It takes a whole lot more effort to size someone in a BP than a jacket. Jackets typically cost less, so it is more economically sound for a dive shop to use them vs. BP/W.

As a professional engineer, I’m all for efficiency and minimizing failure points. I’ve test driven a couple BP/W setups and a few jackets. Thus far, I am unable to say, “wow, THIS is much better than THAT, or THAT is much harder to use than THIS.” That's probably because I am inexperienced, but given my personal philosophies towards life, I’m leaning towards purchasing a BP/W setup. Am I getting myself into something too early? Should I, as a beginner, look more closely at jackets than backplates?

Jackets tend to squeeze you when filled with air. You don't get this when you have a back inflated device.
The other thing that a BP/W offers that jackets don't is the even distribution of weight through the BP. Sure you may want to wear a few #'s of ditchable weight, but for the most part the weight is distributed over your other bcd - your lungs. I have found that this makes it easier to hold my trim. You may as well.

 

[Blackwood]

It is what everyone is taught in. Sort of the one size fits all deal. It takes a whole lot more effort to size someone in a BP than a jacket. Jackets typically cost less, so it is more economically sound for a dive shop to use them vs. BP/W.

That's pretty much what I figured since my dive shop doesn't carry much in the way of backplanes...



Anyway, thanks everyone!

 

[fins]

Blackwood,

SportDiver did a review of bp/w systems in this months issue. One of their first statements was that a bp/w setup is not good for a beginner. However, they didn't go into why they said that. It would be interesting to see the authors reasoning for that statement.

I firmly believe that this myth is around for two reasons:
1. Marketing hype (on the part of the manufacturer and the LDS). It's much easier to sell a multi colored flashy BC with lots of pockets, drings and quick disconnects than to sell what looks to be an uncomfortable metal backplate with uncomfortable looking webbing. After all, why else would there be pink wetsuits and fins
2. Generally people just don't understand or care to understand what a bp/w is all about. They just write it off as "old technology"

My personal experience with a bp/w setup started my OW classes (which I started with a standard BC). However, before my confined water sessions were complete I had switched to a bp/w and was trained on proper setup and use (including longhose, bungeed backup etc). Once switching to the bp/w I was immediately more comfortable and more confident in the water. Notice the "more comfortable in the water" after all, these things are meant to be worn in the water not on the surface.

My personal feelings: I don't see any reason for a beginner not to use a bp/w setup if they are properly trained on it's configuration use (including long hose and bungeed backup).

 

[Hank49]

Sort of the one size fits all deal. It takes a whole lot more effort to size someone in a BP than a jacket. .

Actually I've found the BP/W to be more adaptable. If you get a bad fitting jacket (usually too big) the reg is hitting your head and the tank is wobbling around. If this happens in a bp/w, tighten the straps. A jacket will only go so small. And it it's too small and you inflate it, your eyes bulge from your head and stars appear on the reef......

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If BP/W setups are so superior, why do the vast majority of recreational divers use jackets? Is it a simple question of marketing or is there something I haven’t learned yet?

In many cases, the answer is marketing. In the typical LDS business model, dive classes are offered as a "loss leader" ... meaning that they do not make the shop any money, and often (in and of themselves) cost money to conduct. LDS's offer these low-price classes in order to attract students, and make their money when these students purchase dive gear. So, the upshot is that one purpose of the class is to sell gear. So, it stands to reason that a dive shop staff will attempt to sell you the gear that the shop carries. Many (most?) shops do not carry backplate/harness systems because ... 1) there's not the markup on that type of gear that there typically is on standard BCDs ... especially the higher-end BCD's; 2) there's not the "progression" from "starter" to "intermediate" to "expert" gear that someone mentioned earlier. Once you purchase a backplate, you essentially have it for life. Replacement webbing is very cheap and can be purchased at many places other than an LDS (I buy mine at a fishing supply outlet). So what's left is replacing a wing every now and then either as it wears out or when you need a different size wing ... not much money to be made in that type of product.

So, from a business perspective ... even shops who sell BP/W systems may promote something else to the new diver, as a means to assure a future sale.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rick Inman]

So, from a business perspective ... even shops who sell BP/W systems may promote something else to the new diver, as a means to assure a future sale.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm sure that's true, but it's really just silly. I try to support my LDS, and so when I went to purchase my BP/wing I did my research (mostly in this very forum) and then went to my LDS with my purchase decision. There are 5 dive shops in my area (3 too many) and none of them carry PB/W. I went to the one I use, told them what I wanted to buy and the price I could get it for. They happen to carry the Oxycheq analyzers, so they were able to get my wing for me for just a bit more than what I could get it for online, so I bought it from them (BP from Fred).

About a month ago, some guy came in to their store asking about BP/W, and they ask me if I could call the guy and talk to him. Sure.

I called the guy, gave him my opinion, refereed him to scubaboard and he ordered the oxycheq from my LDS.

Couple guys in my Tuesday dive group are now asking me about BP/Ws and where to buy them. These are the guys who dive a lot and will continue to dive and spend money diving.

The divers I know who dive the BP/W WILL spend more money in the coming years on diving than those I know that dive BCs.

Note: I'm not dir.

 

[ghrousseau]

Actually I've found the BP/W to be more adaptable. If you get a bad fitting jacket (usually too big) the reg is hitting your head and the tank is wobbling around. If this happens in a bp/w, tighten the straps. A jacket will only go so small. And it it's too small and you inflate it, your eyes bulge from your head and stars appear on the reef......

You have a great point............I constantly see people in their conventional BC's hanging on their shoulders with their dive tank hanging arround below their but while they are on the dive boat on the surface. When I put on my harness and wing, it is basically in the same position on land as in the water. With the harness and plate the tank doesn't slide down my back.