BP/W question re: New Divers

[The Kraken]

And besides, with a B/P-Wing combo for the most part ONE SIZE FITS ALL ! ! !

 

[herman]

There is one point that no one has brought out, no only are there BP/wings and jacket styles but there is the back inflate style as well. It's somewhere between the 2 and offers many of the benefits of each style. Which is right for you is mostly your personal decision. Having dove all 3, I prefer the non BP back inflate. I find the buoyancy and trim of a back inflate better than that of a jacket style but for me, the difference in a BP and a back inflate is mimimal. The one big advantage of a back inflate style, BP or otherwise, is that it's fit to the body does not change with the amount of air in the bladder. In contrast, a jacket style with it's wrap around bladder will get loose as air is released and get tighter as air is added. This is a real pain to me, others don't seem to mind.

As for a BP (or other back inflate style for that matter) not being good for a beginner is for the most part BS. The one reason to put beginners in a jacket style is they tend to float you straight up on the surface. This makes teaching easier and is (should be) more comforting to a new diver who is somewhat nervious about the training.

 

[lamont]

I'm a new diver, and I'm looking at getting some equipment. I'll primarily be diving locally, so travel isn’t a big issue for me (yet). I’ve been absorbing a lot of the information regarding the benefits of BP/W setups versus jacket-style BCDs, and it has brought up a few questions. They’ve probably been answered, but there is so much information to sort through here I thought I’d just ask.

First: In a few places I’ve read that BP/W setups aren’t necessarily good for beginners. Why might that be? If they make it easier to maintain horizontal attitude, streamline, customize, etc., wouldn’t that make them better for beginners? Is the only “hard” thing about them knowing how to set them up (considering that most jacket-style BCDs are “all inclusive” and thus don’t require prior knowledge)?

I was diving this weekend with a new diver who was using my singles backplate, and it was kind of educational for me. There are quirks to diving the BP/W that i just never think about anymore. She had issues trying to descend because she was slightly bent forwards trying to dump gas through the inflator hose and my DIR-ME-HARDER halcyon harness has the bungee around the inflator hose so she couldn't figure out how to get the air bubble out of the top of the wing and get down.

 

[JeffG]

I was diving this weekend with a new diver who was using my singles backplate, and it was kind of educational for me. There are quirks to diving the BP/W that i just never think about anymore. She had issues trying to descend because she was slightly bent forwards trying to dump gas through the inflator hose and my DIR-ME-HARDER halcyon harness has the bungee around the inflator hose so she couldn't figure out how to get the air bubble out of the top of the wing and get down.

My brother had the same problem when he started using my pioneer. I did the very Un-Dir thing :11: <snicker> and took the inflater out of the bungee and added another bungee that just travels free on the harness. When he gets used to the rear dump I'll probably force him to put it back

 

[Tollie]

I think BP/H is considered an “advanced system” because divers who are doing advanced and aggressive diving (cave & decompression dives) will use them. The other rap against BP/H is that when over inflated the wing tends to push you towards the water. The advice I give my students is to lean back in the rig like an easy chair and not to pump it up and overfill the wing… easy. Last, the jacket is what’s out there. It feels more comfortable in the shop and looks more comfortable with all the padding. Of course what’s important is that the rig feels right in the water, which the BP/H system does. I wonder if the connection between the BP/H and DIR diving does not stir up some negativity as well. There is a lot of misunderstanding about DIR that may have rubbed off on the BP/H system.

I teach basic O/W and my students use the Halcyon BP/H system (18 lbs wing) and a 5 foot long hose. These folks have no problems with the rig and in my opinion are benefited from the beginning of their careers by experiencing better trim and buoyancy control than are students who are fitted with jackets that are all too often ill fit.

I also do discover scuba dives… and these students as well after a very brief orientation and are good to go.

My advice is to do the BP/H and long hose from the beginning. Don’t waste your time and money on a jacket system that you will out grow.

 

[Blackwood]

I was diving this weekend with a new diver who was using my singles backplate, and it was kind of educational for me. There are quirks to diving the BP/W that i just never think about anymore. She had issues trying to descend because she was slightly bent forwards trying to dump gas through the inflator hose and my DIR-ME-HARDER halcyon harness has the bungee around the inflator hose so she couldn't figure out how to get the air bubble out of the top of the wing and get down.

But is that because she's a new diver or because she'd never used a BP before. I imagine it's the latter.

Any piece of equipment you have you'll have to learn.



Tollie -

That's where I'm going, I think. What's the point of buying something that I'll most likely replace?

Thanks again.

 

[oversea]

Not to start any debate here but my opinion is ditch the long hose for now. I went to the BP/W system (started with the jacket) and eventually the long hose. I recently removed it as I found it to be cumbersome while trying to figure out other things. I will go back to it but not now. As far as the BP/W, I will no longer accept anything else, its great.

 

[Bzzzz]

It's been really interesting reading everyone's threads on this. I got into a BP/W pretty much right away. I had about 20 dives under my belt before I made the switch. I have to say that I would never go back and that the stigma that BP/W are not for beginners should stop. When they first appeared on the recreational market they were used primarily by tech divers who, of course, were in doubles. This stemed the thought that a back plate setup was a more difficult way of diving. Through my experience this couldn't be farther from the truth. I have always found that my BP helps me to keep my horizontal trim and because it's so streamlined I move easier and more comfortably in the water. I for one find jacket styles bulky and too generic and much more probelematic....

Most of the LDS in my area have a pretty good knowledge about the whole BP/W setup. I know that mine keeps them in stock and are very knowledgable about everything to do with the set up. I also think it's important to point out that the BP/W is not just a DIR way of diving. A lot of beginner divers see it as a DIR thing, but where I'm from BP/W are huge outside of the DIR realm.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I think BP/W are coming along and a lot of LDS are noticing the trend and gaining the appropriate knowledge.... so, I'm sure we'll see a big shift in the next couple years.

Dive safe,

Bzzzz

 

[ScubaDadMiami]

Before jacket style BCs, backplates were all there was. There were no bladders; the diver had to do the best he/she could to weight properly. It required athletic types due to the efforts involved.

Then, they added horsecollar bladders. These put the lift in the front and kept an unconscious diver's head above water like a life vest. From a life saving perspective, it seemed like a great idea. Divingwise, it was not so good but could be managed. The athletic diver had to learn to manage this setup because it was thought that it was important to consider the unconscious surfaced diver more than the living, diving person that wanted efficiency under the water. Besides, all these guys were macho and could handle the gear.

For many years, designers kept this life vest concept in mind when designing new bladders for the most part. So, when someone said, "let's put the the tank holder and the horse collar together," the jacket style was born. Designers thought it would be more comfortable to get rid of a rigid backplate. So, this evolved (or better, de-evolved) to a soft, unstable system.

A great marketing concept came along: "Hey, folks, anyone can dive these days. We have nice, soft equipment instead of the hard stuff of the old days. And, we designed it to keep a diver's head above water when we fully inflate this thing. So, even if you can barely swim, come join in the fun." Add some cool colors, pockets, jazz it up, and you can sell a jacket style for $6-800 instead of less for the plain old backplate and wing. What's not to like?

When we dive, we do not want to stay vertical underwater. Jacket styles are not great for diving but they can be managed if that's all you have. If you want a life vest, wear one of these above the water. Below the water, use something that's made for diving. The backplate setup is superior for this from day one.

I am in the middle of an entry level scuba class right now where the students are using backplate and wings and seven foot hoses from day one. Not only can it be done from the outset, it works pretty darn well. Backplates and wings are not just for advanced and technical divers; they are for everyone.

 

[Kriterian]

I'm a new diver, and I'm looking at getting some equipment. I'll primarily be diving locally, so travel isn’t a big issue for me (yet). I’ve been absorbing a lot of the information regarding the benefits of BP/W setups versus jacket-style BCDs, and it has brought up a few questions. They’ve probably been answered, but there is so much information to sort through here I thought I’d just ask.

First: In a few places I’ve read that BP/W setups aren’t necessarily good for beginners. Why might that be? If they make it easier to maintain horizontal attitude, streamline, customize, etc., wouldn’t that make them better for beginners? Is the only “hard” thing about them knowing how to set them up (considering that most jacket-style BCDs are “all inclusive” and thus don’t require prior knowledge)?

Not true at all. I picked up a BP/W right after my open water class (where I used a regular Scubapro BC) and it worked fine. It helps if there is someone around to guide you on getting it installed properly and the fit adjusted, but you can do it yourself. Aside from those god-forsaken cambands that you have to be a NASA scientist to thread, I was able to set the whole thing up by looking at pictures on the internet.

Second: If BP/W setups are so superior, why do the vast majority of recreational divers use jackets? Is it a simple question of marketing or is there something I haven’t learned yet?

I'm not sure on this one. It took me approximately a week of researching the various types to discover which one had the most benefits vs. the least disadvantages. After floating at the surface for a few minutes without my BC wrapped around my head like a turban I knew the BP/W was the right choice.

As a professional engineer, I’m all for efficiency and minimizing failure points. I’ve test driven a couple BP/W setups and a few jackets. Thus far, I am unable to say, “wow, THIS is much better than THAT, or THAT is much harder to use than THIS.” That's probably because I am inexperienced, but given my personal philosophies towards life, I’m leaning towards purchasing a BP/W setup. Am I getting myself into something too early? Should I, as a beginner, look more closely at jackets than backplates?

I don't see why. Other than having to learn the "chicken wing" maneuver to get in and out of a BP, there isn't much extra work in learning how to use it. Not to mention the other benefits, like:

• Initial cost: I paid 250.00 for my wing, and 99.00 for the backplate + harness hardware. Every decent BC I looked at was up around 500 - 600.00
• Overtime cost: The BP/W is much cheaper over time. If the harness wears out, it's about 5 bucks to replace it and the hardware can usually be re-used. I don't think a truck running over a BP could damage it, but they're fairly cheap. The wing can be replaced easily, although they're fairly expensive.
• Modularity: Unlike BC's which come in S, M, L, and XL sizes, the BP/W combo is custom fit to you and your dive exposure. This can be nice later if you go to sell it because it doesn't matter if the person is small or fat, they can still wear it as long as the plate fits. While they make take a little extra time to adjust, once you have them dialed in they fit nicely.
• Underwater use: If you go with a hogarthian or DIR uncluttered BP/W you are the ultimate in streamlining. You don't have unneeded padding throwing off your trim/balance underwater. The crotch strap keeps the BP from floating up over your head like a regular BC does usually.
• Emergency: In an emergency it's alot easier to cut someone out of a BP/W than it is a BC.
• Size and weight: It packs smaller than a conventional BC which is good for travelling/moving it around. The weight of a stainless steel backplate and STA (single tank adapter) can remove up 10 lbs from your waist belt, which is heaven on your back. It also puts the weight in a better place to keep you trimmed properly.

Thanks, and sorry if I repeated threads.

(note, I put this in DIR because the Equip/BC forum seems more general and I wanted to ask DIR-ers, but feel free to move the thread if it's in the wrong spot).

Oops, I didn't notice where I was but I think I stuck within the DIR guidelines. In any case, don't dive a BP/W simply because it's DIR, Hogarthian or Kriterian-ish...dive it because it's the better choice.