Bought two new steel 80s...filled with air

[markmud]

Citation please?

Tank valves aren't designed for delivering gas to the end user. It is a means of segregating the tank pressure from the regulator. The tank valve allows the tank and regulator to be separate modules. Correct? The regulator delivers gas to the end user. Are we arguing over a semantic definitional problem?

Citation please?

cheers,
m²V2

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Citation please?

Tank valves aren't designed for delivering gas to the end user. It is a means of segregating the tank pressure from the regulator. The tank valve allows the tank and regulator to be separate modules. Correct? The regulator delivers gas to the end user. Are we arguing over a semantic definitional problem?

Citation please?

cheers,
m²V2

Before a regulator can deliver gas to the diver it must first pass through the tank valve no? When the valve is opened it is designed to be one complete system ... tank, valve, 1st stage, LP hose, 2nd stage.

Who are you asking for the citation from? You didn’t quote anyone. And citation for what?

 

[markmud]

Before a regulator can deliver gas to the diver it must first pass through the tank valve no? When the valve is opened it is designed to be one complete system ... tank, valve, 1st stage, LP hose, 2nd stage.

Who are you asking for the citation from? You didn’t quote anyone. And citation for what?

I am asking for a citation from anyone involved in this line of conversation. The CFRs are the controlling legal authority and others have informally cited them already. How about some cut-n-past text or a link to the pertinent CFR.

I am not being argumentative. I am truly interested. You and others seem to know the CFRs very well and I would like to be as informed as you and the others. With law (regulation), the devil is in the details.

cheers,
m²V2

 

[Divin'Papaw]

@markmud I didn’t think you were being argumentative. No worries. I just wanted to make sure I knew who you were asking and for what you were asking.

I’ll have to go review my materials from past research & study. I don’t have the citations off the top of my head these days. Since I’m no longer tech diving nor servicing my own tanks it’s not in the forefront of my memory these days.

 

[Sevenrider860]

I am asking for a citation from anyone involved in this line of conversation. The CFRs are the controlling legal authority and others have informally cited them already. How about some cut-n-past text or a link to the pertinent CFR.

I am not being argumentative. I am truly interested. You and others seem to know the CFRs very well and I would like to be as informed as you and the others. With law (regulation), the devil is in the details.

cheers,
m²V2

Below is a link to Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 171. I am not sure how the copy paste of the references will work, but a screen shot should be sufficient. This shows how the various CGA Pamphlets have been incorporated into sections of the law.

What I think is complete crap is that these CGA pamphlets have become federal law, but you cant get a free copy of the pamphlet, you must purchase them from CGA...and they are not cheap.



Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR)

 

[Scared Silly]

The shops that won’t fill a non-O2 clean tank with banked 36% will gladly fill an O2 clean tank with 100% for deco. Makes no sense.

There are several competing issues. A shop will have liability insurance which requires them to follow applicable industry standards if they want to be covered in the event of an incident. The standards include when O2 cleaning is required.

There is also a practical side. While a scuba valve is not the best design for O2 it can mitigated by O2 cleaning, using O2 compatible materials, slowly opening the valve, etc.

Whereas when it comes to filling a non O2 clean valve/cylinder with on demand nitrox <40% the variable that can not be controlled is how clean is the valve/cylinder. Over the years I have had some pretty dirty oily fills.

At the end of day the real issue is that scuba industry is small compared to the reset of the industry using O2. Further nitrox is a bastardized gas that does not fit into the norms of gases used in industry so there is little incentive to change the standards unless the scuba industry wants to spend the money. And given the state of the scuba industry I do not see that happening ...

 

[Scared Silly]

Below is a link to Title 49, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 171. I am not sure how the copy paste of the references will work, but a screen shot should be sufficient. This shows how the various CGA Pamphlets have been incorporated into sections of the law.

What I think is complete crap is that these CGA pamphlets have become federal law, but you cant get a free copy of the pamphlet, you must purchase them from CGA...and they are not cheap.

Here is the complete list. In bold are the ones that apply to SCUBA (I think I have them all).

(n) Compressed Gas Association (CGA), 1235 Jefferson Davis Highway, Arlington, VA 22202.

(1) CGA Pamphlet C-3, Standards for Welding on Thin-Walled Steel Cylinders, 1994, into §178.47; 178.50; 178.51; 178.53; 178.55; 178.56; 178.57; 178.58; 178.59; 178.60; 178.61; 178.65; 178.68; 180.211.

(2) CGA C-5, Cylinder Service Life—Seamless Steel High Pressure Cylinders, 1991 (reaffirmed 1995), into §173.302a.

(3) CGA Pamphlet C-6, Standards for Visual Inspection of Steel Compressed Gas Cylinders, 1993, into §172.102, §173.3, 173.198, 180.205, 180.209, 180.211, 180.411, 180.519.

(4) CGA Pamphlet C-6.1, Standards for Visual Inspection of High Pressure Aluminum Compressed Gas Cylinders, 2002, Fourth Edition, into §180.205; 180.209.

(5) CGA Pamphlet C-6.2, Guidelines for Visual Inspection and Requalification of Fiber Reinforced High Pressure Cylinders, 1996, Third Edition, into §180.205.

(6) CGA Pamphlet C-6.3, Guidelines for Visual Inspection and Requalification of Low Pressure Aluminum Compressed Gas Cylinders, 1991, into §180.205; 180.209.

(7) CGA C-7-2014, Guide to Classification and Labeling of Compressed Gases, Tenth Edition, copyright 2014, into §172.400a.

(8) CGA Pamphlet C-8, Standard for Requalification of DOT-3HT Cylinder Design, 1985, into §180.205; 180.209.

(9) CGA Pamphlet C-11, Recommended Practices for Inspection of Compressed Gas Cylinders at Time of Manufacture, 2001, Third Edition, into §178.35.

(10) CGA Pamphlet C-12, Qualification Procedure for Acetylene Cylinder Design, 1994, into §173.301; 173.303; 178.59; 178.60.

(11) CGA Pamphlet C-13, Guidelines for Periodic Visual Inspection and Requalification of Acetylene Cylinders, 2000, Fourth Edition, into §173.303; 180.205; 180.209.

(12) CGA Pamphlet C-14, Procedures for Fire Testing of DOT Cylinder Pressure Relief Device Systems, 1979, into §173.301; 173.323.

(13) CGA G-1.6-2011, Standard for Mobile Acetylene Trailer Systems, Seventh Edition, copyright 2011, into §173.301.

(14) CGA Pamphlet G-2.2, Guideline Method for Determining Minimum of 0.2% Water in Anhydrous Ammonia, 1985, Second Edition, Reaffirmed 1997, into §173.315.

(15) CGA Pamphlet G-4.1, Cleaning Equipment for Oxygen Service, 1985, into §178.338-15.

(16) CGA Pamphlet P-20, Standard for the Classification of Toxic Gas Mixtures, 1995, into §173.115.

(17) CGA Pamphlet P-20, Standard for the Classification of Toxic Gas Mixtures, 2003, Third Edition, into §173.115.

(18) CGA S-1.1, Pressure Relief Device Standards—Part 1—Cylinders for Compressed Gases, (with the exception of paragraph 9.1.1.1), Twelfth Edition, 2005, into §173.301, 173.304a 178.75.

(19) CGA Pamphlet S-1.2, Safety Relief Device Standards Part 2—Cargo and Portable Tanks for Compressed Gases, 1980, into §173.315; 173.318; 178.276; 178.277.

(20) CGA S-7, Method for Selecting Pressure Relief Devices for Compressed Gas Mixtures in Cylinders, 2005, into §173.301.

(21) CGA Technical Bulletin TB-2, Guidelines for Inspection and Repair of MC-330 and MC-331 Cargo Tanks, 1980, into §180.407; 180.413.

(22) CGA Technical Bulletin TB-25, Design Considerations for Tube Trailers, 2008 Edition, into §173.301.

(23) CGA V-9-2012, Compressed Gas Association Standard for Compressed Cylinder Valves, Seventh Edition, 2012, into §173.301.

 

[Boston Breakwater]

Technically no standard scuba valve can be made O2 clean. The issue isn’t the materials used inside the valve but the design itself. So technically if we are going to religiously follow CGA standards we would not be diving Nitrox.

Personally (just my opinion) I think that’s unnecessarily conservative. I fill my non-O2 clean tanks with 32-36% and have for years. I will continue to do so. YMMV

Hello, Jim. Great post...It's surprising, how many divers, and dive shop employees don't know that, about valves.
Kind of like.. people saying that after the first Hydro, or missing one on a Steel L.P.
The + rating cannot be "reinstated."
(For lack of a better term.)
Cheers.

 

[Boston Breakwater]

Here is the complete list. In bold are the ones that apply to SCUBA (I think I have them all).

(n) Compressed Gas Association (CGA), 1235 Jefferson Davis Highway, Arlington, VA 22202.

(1) CGA Pamphlet C-3, Standards for Welding on Thin-Walled Steel Cylinders, 1994, into §178.47; 178.50; 178.51; 178.53; 178.55; 178.56; 178.57; 178.58; 178.59; 178.60; 178.61; 178.65; 178.68; 180.211.

(2) CGA C-5, Cylinder Service Life—Seamless Steel High Pressure Cylinders, 1991 (reaffirmed 1995), into §173.302a.

(3) CGA Pamphlet C-6, Standards for Visual Inspection of Steel Compressed Gas Cylinders, 1993, into §172.102, §173.3, 173.198, 180.205, 180.209, 180.211, 180.411, 180.519.

(4) CGA Pamphlet C-6.1, Standards for Visual Inspection of High Pressure Aluminum Compressed Gas Cylinders, 2002, Fourth Edition, into §180.205; 180.209.

(5) CGA Pamphlet C-6.2, Guidelines for Visual Inspection and Requalification of Fiber Reinforced High Pressure Cylinders, 1996, Third Edition, into §180.205.

(6) CGA Pamphlet C-6.3, Guidelines for Visual Inspection and Requalification of Low Pressure Aluminum Compressed Gas Cylinders, 1991, into §180.205; 180.209.

(7) CGA C-7-2014, Guide to Classification and Labeling of Compressed Gases, Tenth Edition, copyright 2014, into §172.400a.

(8) CGA Pamphlet C-8, Standard for Requalification of DOT-3HT Cylinder Design, 1985, into §180.205; 180.209.

(9) CGA Pamphlet C-11, Recommended Practices for Inspection of Compressed Gas Cylinders at Time of Manufacture, 2001, Third Edition, into §178.35.

(10) CGA Pamphlet C-12, Qualification Procedure for Acetylene Cylinder Design, 1994, into §173.301; 173.303; 178.59; 178.60.

(11) CGA Pamphlet C-13, Guidelines for Periodic Visual Inspection and Requalification of Acetylene Cylinders, 2000, Fourth Edition, into §173.303; 180.205; 180.209.

(12) CGA Pamphlet C-14, Procedures for Fire Testing of DOT Cylinder Pressure Relief Device Systems, 1979, into §173.301; 173.323.

(13) CGA G-1.6-2011, Standard for Mobile Acetylene Trailer Systems, Seventh Edition, copyright 2011, into §173.301.

(14) CGA Pamphlet G-2.2, Guideline Method for Determining Minimum of 0.2% Water in Anhydrous Ammonia, 1985, Second Edition, Reaffirmed 1997, into §173.315.

(15) CGA Pamphlet G-4.1, Cleaning Equipment for Oxygen Service, 1985, into §178.338-15.

(16) CGA Pamphlet P-20, Standard for the Classification of Toxic Gas Mixtures, 1995, into §173.115.

(17) CGA Pamphlet P-20, Standard for the Classification of Toxic Gas Mixtures, 2003, Third Edition, into §173.115.

(18) CGA S-1.1, Pressure Relief Device Standards—Part 1—Cylinders for Compressed Gases, (with the exception of paragraph 9.1.1.1), Twelfth Edition, 2005, into §173.301, 173.304a 178.75.

(19) CGA Pamphlet S-1.2, Safety Relief Device Standards Part 2—Cargo and Portable Tanks for Compressed Gases, 1980, into §173.315; 173.318; 178.276; 178.277.

(20) CGA S-7, Method for Selecting Pressure Relief Devices for Compressed Gas Mixtures in Cylinders, 2005, into §173.301.

(21) CGA Technical Bulletin TB-2, Guidelines for Inspection and Repair of MC-330 and MC-331 Cargo Tanks, 1980, into §180.407; 180.413.

(22) CGA Technical Bulletin TB-25, Design Considerations for Tube Trailers, 2008 Edition, into §173.301.

(23) CGA V-9-2012, Compressed Gas Association Standard for Compressed Cylinder Valves, Seventh Edition, 2012, into §173.301.

Hello. Extremely useful. Myself, and others (I'm sure.) appreciate the time you took to post this.
Thanks.

 

[Boston Breakwater]

Thank you. A second reputable dive shop in PBC said it is not an issue because they fill with blended. I am filling them today.

Hello, again. What shop? May, I ask?
Cheers.