Boltsnap breakaways

[DevonDiver]

The flip side of that is "Why would I opt for an attachment method that could require tools to overcome in an emergency, when there's another method that works just as well and has no possibility of failing in an "inaccessible" mode?"

True, but as stated in the remainder of the post that you quoted.... when exactly is that gonna happen?

If you're an OW 'rec' diver, you have no need to ever secure the long hose....

If you're a tech/wreck/cave diver, then you have limited need to secure it... but also [should have] the skillset, equipment and ability to plan procedurally to cater/mitigate towards such low-risk/low-occurrence malfunctions..

Yes,... I'm splitting hairs... but it's an interesting debate.

 

[GROBIOG]

I think if a regulator is meant as back up or to be donated in a emergency, it's a very bad idea to stow/secure it on any way that it can't be freed with a simple pull/tug, it needs to be done fast the first time around.

We secure it with cave line because when it's clipped off, it is no longer the reg to be donated in a emergency, it will always be the one I'm breathing from, and the one for me is always on my necklace.

Believing on skillset, equipment and ability to free up a clipped off reg in an EMERGENCY is hopefull at best.

 

[DevonDiver]

I think if a regulator is meant as back up or to be donated in a emergency, it's a very bad idea to stow/secure it on any way that it can't be freed with a simple pull/tug, it needs to be done fast the first time around.

We secure it with cave line because when it's clipped off, it is no longer the reg to be donated in a emergency, it will always be the one I'm breathing from, and the one for me is always on my necklace.

There's a dozen reasons why this is wrong, especially on a hogarthian/technical diving sub-forum. However, in principle (for this discussion) it does illustrate why a breakaway clip isn't 'critical'...

The only reason why the long hose wouldn't be the primary response for donation, would be if the backgas was hypoxic (and divers were above breathable depth). That's a typically small window of inaccessibility - and would be covered by your travel gas.

Were you taught to donate from your deco gas in the first instance?

What would you do in the event of witnessing your buddy botch a deco gas switch? 'Rip and replace' with your deco reg? Seriously?

However, should the long-hose snag... you are correct in identifying that there is always an alternative source (if you're in a situation where the long hose is clipped in the first place).

Believing on skillset, equipment and ability to free up a clipped off reg in an EMERGENCY is hopefull at best.

Not believing the skillset, equipment and ability are the primary factors determining your capability and capacity, in any circumstances, are..... well, need I say more?

What I am getting at is that; two competent divers should have the capacity to deal with an issue like a snagged bolt-snap upon air-donation. The only divers who'd have to deal with that scenario are ones who'd be conducting diving that'd require a technical level of capability.... thus (hopefully!) capable of dealing with a minor issue in a timely and controlled manner - knowledgeable and capable of the procedures and resources at their disposal to rectify the situation.

 

[Splitlip]

True, but as stated in the remainder of the post that you quoted.... when exactly is that gonna happen?

If you're an OW 'rec' diver, you have no need to ever secure the long hose....

If you're a tech/wreck/cave diver, then you have limited need to secure it... but also [should have] the skillset, equipment and ability to plan procedurally to cater/mitigate towards such low-risk/low-occurrence malfunctions..

Yes,... I'm splitting hairs... but it's an interesting debate.

I'm a rec diver. Been using a long hose and necklace on and off since 1999. I've seen people go into emergency mode with the long hose clipped off. Would have been nice to pull it off the d/ring.

In those days, for shooting a marker, I would put my necklaced 2nd in my mouth and use my long hose to inflate the tube. I would then clip off the primary and begin my ascent.
Just go ahead and say its a training thing, and, well, the mods will delete my reply l

 

[GROBIOG]

There's a dozen reasons why this is wrong, especially on a hogarthian/technical diving sub-forum. However, in principle (for this discussion) it does illustrate why a breakaway clip isn't 'critical'...

The only reason why the long hose wouldn't be the primary response for donation, would be if the backgas was hypoxic (and divers were above breathable depth). That's a typically small window of inaccessibility - and would be covered by your travel gas.

Were you taught to donate from your deco gas in the first instance?

What would you do in the event of witnessing your buddy botch a deco gas switch? 'Rip and replace' with your deco reg? Seriously?

However, should the long-hose snag... you are correct in identifying that there is always an alternative source (if you're in a situation where the long hose is clipped in the first place).




Not believing the skillset, equipment and ability are the primary factors determining your capability and capacity, in any circumstances, are..... well, need I say more?

What I am getting at is that; two competent divers should have the capacity to deal with an issue like a snagged bolt-snap upon air-donation. The only divers who'd have to deal with that scenario are ones who'd be conducting diving that'd require a technical level of capability.... thus (hopefully!) capable of dealing with a minor issue in a timely and controlled manner - knowledgeable and capable of the procedures and resources at their disposal to rectify the situation.

I rest my case.

 

[reefduffer]

Ummm... I'm a recreational diver who's adopted the 5' long hose / bungeed backup reg setup in preference to the other mainstream configs, without any intention or pretense of adopting any other particular hog or dir configuration or practices.

Early on, I dove with a tec diver (BP/W, etc.), who pointed out that he tied that bolt snap far enough down the hose from the second stage so that when it was clipped off on the shoulder D-ring, he could still breath it, maybe not turn to the left much, but get air long enough to take his time unclipping it, should the bungied backup not be an option for whatever reason.

It made sense, and I've taken care to keep that in mind when attaching mine. Take this as a request for opinion, not a statement that I know what's right here, either per anybody's standards, or functionally. The boltsnap bungeed to the mouthpiece would seem to preclude that, although perhaps you'd cover that rare requirement by just pulling the mouthpiece loose from the boltsnap/bungee?

Is breathing from the clipped-off long hose not considered a configuration objective?

 

[Splitlip]

I've seen someone breathing a clipped off long hose (face to chest). And we say breathing off a standard donated reg hose while the guy donating the hose is breathing an AirII is wrong. Sheesh, guys. The clip on the Primary needs to be breakaway.

 

[DevonDiver]

I rest my case.

What case? (genuinely confused... are we agreeing here?)

The most urgent need a tech diver has to share their primary would be in the instance of a botched gas switch by a team-mate (rip-and-replace).

In the bottom phase, it'd be long-hose donation, but the hose wouldn't be clipped off at that time (it'd be in the diver's mouth.

During deco (all except potential ox-tox switch muddles) you would donate your (in the mouth) deco reg and go back to your bungeed short hose.

The exception to the above being if backgas was hypoxic - in which case, you'd have travel/deco gas only. Either way, a clipped off long-hose wouldn't be a consideration for sharing.

I'm a rec diver. Been using a long hose and necklace on and off since 1999. I've seen people go into emergency mode with the long hose clipped off. Would have been nice to pull it off the d/ring.

This is what I don't get?!? WHY would a recreational diver ever be clipping off their long-hose on a dive? It's not like you're going to be on a deco stop...

And on a 'Hogarthian' sub-forum, we're not talking about indie-doubles, are we?

In those days, for shooting a marker, I would put my necklaced 2nd in my mouth and use my long hose to inflate the tube. I would then clip off the primary and begin my ascent.

Do you mean that you wouldn't bother to go back onto your long hose for the ascent?!?

Early on, I dove with a tec diver (BP/W, etc.), who pointed out that he tied that bolt snap far enough down the hose from the second stage so that when it was clipped off on the shoulder D-ring, he could still breath it, maybe not turn to the left much, but get air long enough to take his time unclipping it, should the bungied backup not be an option for whatever reason.

That kinda defeats the purpose of clipping it off in the first place...the goal being to keep hoses tidily out of the way, when not in use. It's not about 'dropping' the long hose - as (if hog looped) it isn't going to fall down/away anyway.

Locating the clip several feet down the hose is just sloppy, from a technical perspective (IMHO). It'd dangle just as much as if you hadn't clipped it off in the first place...

The boltsnap bungeed to the mouthpiece would seem to preclude that, although perhaps you'd cover that rare requirement by just pulling the mouthpiece loose from the boltsnap/bungee?

I don't think anyone bungees a boltsnap to the mouthpiece. It normally gets placed where the hose meets the second-stage.

Is breathing from the clipped-off long hose not considered a configuration objective?

Nope.

Clipping off the long-hose is purely about reducing a mess of hoses when the back-gas isn't being used (i.e. when breathing from a deco cylinder/regulator).

The only exception to that is when indie tanks (back or sidemounted) are used... and the diver is gas swapping/matching his cylinders by breathing to pre-determined pressures alternatively from each tank. That isn't strictly 'hogarthian' - and there's no prerogative to clip off the long hose during those swaps - although it is a good idea, if operating in a restricted/entanglement environment (wreck or cave).

From my experience, even when clipped off at the hose/regulator junction, it's still possible for a diver to access/breath from the regulator (or do I just have a flexible neck??). The primary issue being air-sharing.

When teaching sidemount... that's something I hammer into students - calling for many impromptu OOA drills, especially when I see they've clipped off the long-hose. I've not been (sim) drowned yet, so..........

 

[reefduffer]

Early on, I dove with a tec diver (BP/W, etc.), who pointed out that he tied that bolt snap far enough down the hose from the second stage so that when it was clipped off on the shoulder D-ring, he could still breath it, ...

That kinda defeats the purpose of clipping it off in the first place...the goal being to keep hoses tidily out of the way, when not in use. It's not about 'dropping' the long hose - as (if hog looped) it isn't going to fall down/away anyway.

Locating the clip several feet down the hose is just sloppy, from a technical perspective (IMHO). It'd dangle just as much as if you hadn't clipped it off in the first place...

I apparently painted the picture wrong. I just looked at my regs, the boltsnap is 5 inches from the 2nd stage hose connection. It doesn't dangle hardly at all. And I could probably take a couple of inches out of that and still breath it clipped off, and I probably will at the next opportunity.

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... The boltsnap bungeed to the mouthpiece would seem to preclude that, although perhaps you'd cover that rare requirement by just pulling the mouthpiece loose from the boltsnap/bungee?

I don't think anyone bungees a boltsnap to the mouthpiece. It normally gets placed where the hose meets the second-stage.

That confusion is probably mostly my fault again, for not quoting what I was responding to. Way back in post #45 in this thread:

... What I found works great for this is tying bungee around the mouthpiece with a bolt snap on it. That way when you stow the reg it's much closer to your body than tying it by the long hose.
Just my $0.02

Which had me pondering for awhile about the conflict with the concept of breathing off the clipped second stage, and which actually prompted my post more than anything else. And clearly, someone does.

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Is breathing from the clipped-off long hose not considered a configuration objective?

Nope.

Direct answer, and appreciated. So I've been told both, and you clearly have better credentials. Food for thought, although I also note that you say below that you can do it, although apparently it's not an objective.

Clipping off the long-hose is purely about reducing a mess of hoses when the back-gas isn't being used (i.e. when breathing from a deco cylinder/regulator).

The only exception to that is when indie tanks (back or sidemounted) are used... and the diver is gas swapping/matching his cylinders by breathing to pre-determined pressures alternatively from each tank. That isn't strictly 'hogarthian' - and there's no prerogative to clip off the long hose during those swaps - although it is a good idea, if operating in a restricted/entanglement environment (wreck or cave).

From my experience, even when clipped off at the hose/regulator junction, it's still possible for a diver to access/breath from the regulator (or do I just have a flexible neck??). The primary issue being air-sharing....

Well, from my perspective the primary purpose of clipping off the long hose is for when not breathing the regulator because I'm not actually diving - gearing up/down, walking around the boat, ... Or in the case of the original anecdote with the tec diver I mentioned, a long and strenuous surface swim out to the drop point for the dive.

Maybe my stumpy neck needs a couple of inches extra hose compared to you. Or maybe I just assumed it does, and should revisit that. But in any case, I'm not talking feet.

 

[DevonDiver]

I apparently painted the picture wrong. I just looked at my regs, the boltsnap is 5 inches from the 2nd stage hose connection. It doesn't dangle hardly at all.

That's a matter of perspective... and we all know how the difference of a few inches, more or less, of 'dangle' can be subject to very different perspectives

Direct answer, and appreciated. So I've been told both, and you clearly have better credentials. Food for thought, although I also note that you say below that you can do it, although apparently it's not an objective.

Yep. I like to know things like that. Whilst not an 'objective' of the configuration, the capability to do, or not do, something is best known in advance lest the most unlikely scenario ever does arise.

Well, from my perspective the primary purpose of clipping off the long hose is for when not breathing the regulator because I'm not actually diving - gearing up/down, walking around the boat, ... Or in the case of the original anecdote with the tec diver I mentioned, a long and strenuous surface swim out to the drop point for the dive.

Which was kind of my point. You won't be air-sharing during the walk to the boat etc. I just don't see a scenario where a recreational (not doing deco on stages) diver would ever need to clip-off their long hose whilst submerged. Thus, the need for break-away is a moot point.