Blood in my face mask

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rickc

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Went diving this morning with the last remnants of a mild cold. Took some decongestants. A little tight in the sinuses, but was able to equalize ok.

At the end of the dive, there was a little bit of blood in my face mask, from my nose, etc.

Should I be concerned about this? How about diving again tomorrow?

PS - I take aspirin every day, so I tend to bleed a tiny bit more than average on a cut, etc.

TNX.

Rick Colman
Laguna Hills, CA
 
so why risk anything like permanent damage? Surely, there will be other dives.
 
Saw "a little" congested student's sinus rupture in the pool in four (4) feet of water. It's not pretty and it takes a LONG time to heal! It's best to wait until your head clears up.
Ber :bunny:
 
But I am an instructor, and bloody masks are a thing I am used to see quite often. It ranges from several droops to blood mixed with yellow foam filling half the mask. I know some people that bleed in each and every dive but are quite ok. The bleeding itself, in my opinion, is no reason to stop diving, as long as you feel comfortable, and it dosen't pose any kind of threat. Most people wont even know they bled untill they take their mask of their faces on the surface, after the dive is over.

A completly different issue is divng on medications-I wouldn't recommend such a thing, and diving with medications for treatment of sinuses and cold may pose a problem at the end of the dive (cose a reverse sinus) when you ascend, and the effects of the drug have wanned.
 
Hi Liquid, couple of things:

Originally posted by Liquid
The bleeding itself, in my opinion, is no reason to stop diving, as long as you feel comfortable, and it dosen't pose any kind of threat.

When one of your students has blood in their mask you have a pretty good idea that they've likely had a squeeze and suffered barotrauma bad enough to cause them to bleed. While you're right that the injury is usually insignificant and self-limiting, and there are indeed some people that have the problem occur on nearly every dive, how do you know when "it dosen't pose any kind of threat"? How do you make the determination when to tell your students it's OK to dive and when it's not? As I'm sure you're aware, the effects of sinus barotrauma can on occasion be quite severe and rarely even life-threatening. How do you sort out those potentially dangerous instances when you tell other people it's fine to dive with barotrauma? I'm curious about what criteria you use.

Originally posted by Liquid
A completly different issue is divng on medications-I wouldn't recommend such a thing, and diving with medications for treatment of sinuses and cold may pose a problem at the end of the dive (cose a reverse sinus) when you ascend, and the effects of the drug have wanned.

While there might be a number of good reasons for not diving on various medications with certain medical conditions, I personnally never thought that this in and of itself was one of those good reasons. It seems akin to saying that you should never dive with breathing gas in your tank because it might run out during the dive. Just plan your dives so that you don't run out during the dive.

Bill
 
About students with blood-
If every time a student has some blood in his mask, you call off the rest of his course, you will end in both financial loss for yourself, and a an upset customer, that dosen't understand why he should quit becouse of it. Consider also, that the place where I used to teach diving is eilat, where having above 40 degrees celsius, is quite normal in the summer (when most of the diving takes place). A little blood in the mask is nothing to worry about, if it isn't acompanied by pain. Noses tend to bleed from time to time, aspecialy when you are using dry, compressed air.

As for your second remark-I didn't just say it with no reason. I have seen quite some cases of it happen. You can't tell exactly when the medic that drys your nose will stop work. I have seen many times when people (including instructors) used such a medicine and it coused them Barotrauma at the end of the dive, even though the affect should have stayed. Diving with medicine is a bad thing, and should not be done unless nessasery and checked with a doctor.
 
Hmmm, let's see if I can figure out what you're saying. If I can paraphrase...

You are saying that a diver should never use a decongestant when they dive (without a doctor's direction) in the off chance that they metabolize the drug grossly abnormally and its effects wear off much sooner than expected. The reason for this admonition is because if they're one of these strange metabolizers they might suffer a barotrauma, from say a sinus squeeze, and that would be absolutely unacceptable.

And yet you're perfectly comfortable turning around and telling your customers, your students, the 2294+ registered members of this board, and who knows how many other readers that when you surface with a mask full of yellow foam and blood and are virtually certain that you've already suffered a barotrauma there's absolutely no concern with continuing diving until you have pain.

Hmmmm....no.... I still can't figure out what you're saying because that makes no sense to me. You can dive when you HAVE barotrauma, but not in the unlikely event you might GET barotrauma. Hmmmmmmm........ I must have that wrong, because I'd have to disagree with that advice.

I'm wondering if suppose on the next dive your student with the blood in the mask does have pain from an orbital blow out of the maxillary sinus and they end up blinded from the infection, or they rupture a sphenoid or ethmoid sinus into the cranium and die from meningitis if they might not also get mad? Not if they're dead, I guess. It might end up more expensive than a course fee or a dive trip, though. Don't you think?

Now what I'm saying is that blood in the mask is usually due to sinus barotrauma and is only rarely of concern, but that that concern (sometimes a very serious concern) should be relayed to the person with the blood in the mask so they can make their own informed decision whether or not they wish to continue diving. Rather than just tell them that there's no concern, I mean. Wouldn't you agree?

And about the drugs, I'm saying if you take a 12 hour dose of pseudoephedrine before you dive and you have a block 4 hours later due to congestion, it's not because the drug wore off while you were diving. It's because you were too congested to dive in the first place. It wasn't a problem with the drug, it was a problem with the diver's judgement. And if you take a 4 hour nasal spray and expect it to have maximum potency 3.5 hours later at the end of your dive after you've been taking it for a week- and it doesn't, that isn't the drug's fault either. It just wasn't used properly. Like everything else in diving, proper use of medications requires forethought and planning. Doesn't that make sense to you?

More of my 2¢,

Bill

(Hey! Maybe you should tell your students with the blood in the mask to take a 12 hour pseudoephedrine and use a 12 hour oxymetazoline nasal spray before their next dive so they'll be less likely to have a barotrauma on the next dive, eh? Just kiddin' ya ;-)
 
I said:

"If every time a student has some blood in his mask"
and:
"A little blood in the mask is nothing to worry about, if it isn't acompanied by pain. Noses tend to bleed from time to time, aspecialy when you are using dry, compressed air. "

But you isnsisted on understanding:

And yet you're perfectly comfortable turning around and telling your customers, your students, the 2294+ registered members of this board, and who knows how many other readers that when you surface with a mask full of yellow foam and blood and are virtually certain that you've already suffered a barotrauma there's absolutely no concern with continuing diving until you have pain.

All I said, is that having a little bit of blood in your mask(which most of the times the student is unaware of, untill he takes his mask off on the surface and someone says "Hey, you've got some blood in that bogey), is VERY frequent, aspecialy in hot areas (which naturaly, most tropical diving sites are located at), and that canceling a diving vocation becouse of it, is many times unnessacery. I dont think I know any diver with over 100 dives that never once bleeded a bit. usualy it is becouse of the dry air and hot suroundings. I will never tell someone with orange foam to continue diving! I will send such a case to a doctor, though I do know a guy that has TONS of orange foam every dive, and is used to it, though it quite frightens me to see it.

You are saying that a diver should never use a decongestant when they dive (without a doctor's direction) in the off chance that they metabolize the drug grossly abnormally and its effects wear off much sooner than expected. The reason for this admonition is because if they're one of these strange metabolizers they might suffer a barotrauma, from say a sinus squeeze, and that would be absolutely unacceptable.

I saw in your profile that you are a surgeon, so I take it that you are not a divng/HBO specilaist, and that most of your knowledge conserning diving is from being a diver yourself, and reading about it here and there. Well, my PRACTICAL knowledge, considerning diving, as an instructor, might be a bit larger than your own, and I have probobly seen more cases of diving maladies happen in reall time than you(plus I do know some HBO doctors, and HBO operators that i used to dive/work with).

What happens, is that people tend to take drying drugs before diving. sometimes several hours before it, and not alwais a 12 hour dose. Than they go dive, the drugs affect wanns (and high pressure of air can some times make this prosses faster) during the dive. when time comes to ascend, suddenly, during the ascent they feel quite a nasty pain in their sinuses, and can't ascend becouse of the pain. only they have to. a severe case of sinus block happens, and when they will surface, their mask will be filled with bload, foam and bogeys, not mentioning the pain they mast go through in order to reach the surface.

So , what I say about this, is that if you need this kind of drug, or any other drug for that matter, and you plan to dive-go see a DIVING doctor that will recomend you on the best solution for your problem. As a none-doctor myself, I will never take the responsibilty of suggeting medications to others. A large problem with medications and diving, is that higher pressure couses medications to have side affects and other implications (like speeding narcossis) that were not thoroughly researched.

About the last paragraphs of your message-I agree with these, ofcourse. I only said that you do not need to force someone to quit his course/vocation becouse he had a drop or two of blood in his mask. And like I said above- I will not recomend anything about drugs to a diver, you are a doctor, you know about drugs, I am not, so I keep myself out of that field completly.
 
Hi Liquid:

Sorry if I seem to keep needling you, but it does seem to be having an effect- in your last paragraph you say you agree with me. I have to admit that I'm enjoying the challenge of trying to follow your train of logic. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm having fun at your expense.

I think it interesting that in your last post you seem to be questioning my qualifications when I've claimed no special qualifications and at the same time touted your own superior qualifications when they've never been questioned. An interesting tactic in the discussion, especially when you seem to agree with my assertions and have made no direct effort to defend your points that I've taken issue with. You agree with me, yet I'm unqualified. You agree with me, yet you stand by your misleading statements. Fascinating logic. What say we explore it some more?

Just for review, rick c came on the board and described blood in his mask after diving with a cold and congestion. He lives in Laguna Hills, California and was diving in winter so I think we can assume that the temperature wasn't 40°C. Would you not agree that he best describes the signs of sinus barotrauma? He also wanted to know if he should continue diving with that condition.

And in this thread you told us all that "A little blood in the mask is nothing to worry about, if it isn't accompanied by pain" implying that he can continue diving without concern. That statement, sir, is incorrect. It might be of minor concern in most cases or unlikely to be a major worry usually, but to say that there are NO possible worries with continued diving with barotrauma is inaccurate, misleading, and, IMHO, irresponsible.

If a diver notices the effects of sinus barotrauma after an ascent from a dive and they have no pain, you are correct that it is very unlikely that they will suffer any untoward effects from that particular dive. But you have yet to tell me how you can determine that the diver will have no further injury- perhaps a serious one- from continuing to dive. Like I asked you in my first response to you, how do you know when "it doesn't pose any kind of threat"? What examination do you perform, what diagnostic tests do you do? I say you can't know when sinus barotrauma won't pose a threat because it can pose a threat during subsequent dives.

In your last post you said, "I only said that you do not need to force someone to quit his course/vocation because he had a drop or two of blood in his mask." I'm afraid that you are misrepresenting what you said. (Or maybe you're just trying to change what you're saying?) If that was all that you had said I would not have taken issue with your comments. But instead, you said, "A little blood in the mask is nothing to worry about". That is a very different statement. If you're going to tell a diver there is no danger you need to have some basis for your assertion. You seem to have little or none other than "I've never seen it myself." Hardly scientific. I never said that you "need to force someone to quit his course/vacation because he had a drop or two of blood in his mask". All that I've been trying to get you to do is just be honest with the members of this board (and your students?). When they ascend with blood in their mask, tell them that they may have suffered an injury from sinus barotrauma, and if they continue to dive they could (will?) suffer further barotrauma. The injury is usually mild, but on very rare occasions it can be quite severe and potentially even life threatening. Then they can make their own informed decision about whether they wish to continue to dive. That would be the more responsible approach in my opinion.

Oh, but wait, I forgot. I'm not a diving instructor so I'm not qualified to carry on this discussion:

From Bove and Davis' Diving Medicine, "individuals with a history of possible paranasal sinus or nasal disease (snip) are less likely to be able to equilibrate paranasal sinus or middle ear pressure adequately when exposed to pressure changes encountered in diving and should be thoroughly evaluated before being cleared to dive." (They didn't specify, but I don't think they had in mind the dive instructor just saying, "No worries!" when they talked about "thoroughly evaluated".)

From Bennett and Elliott's The Physiology and Medicine of Diving, "Those individuals who cannot adequately maintain proper sinus cavity ventilation in the absence of diving should not be expected to ventilate those cavities adequately during the large barometric pressure changes encountered in diving. These individuals should not dive." (Hmm, seems pretty clear.)

From Edmonds, Lowry, and Pennefather's Diving and Subaquatic Medicine "Sinus barotrauma of ascent" (like might give you blood in the mask) "may follow the occlusion of sinus openings by mucosal folds or sinus polyps, preventing escape of expanding gases. The ostium or its mucosa will then blow out into the nasal cavity, with or without pain, and haemorrhage commonly follows. If the expanding air cannot escape through the sinuses, it may fracture the walls and track along the soft tissues. (snip) Occasionally the air may rupture into the cranial cavity and cause pneumocephalus." (Air from those yucky sinuses loose around the brain. Pretty scary, eh?) They also found that in 48% of cases of sinus barotrauma, tympanic membrane (ear drum) barotrauma was also discovered when the eardrum was examined.

Are those sources qualified enough for you? You can tell that I'm unqualified in this discussion, because these dive medicine authorities seem to be taking a stricter stance against diving with sinus barotrauma than I am. (And certainly a much stricter stance than you are taking.) Significant problems with sinus barotrauma are uncommon, but they do happen.

Oh, BTW, your decision not to recommend any specific drugs to another diver because you are not qualified to do so is quite understandable and very responsible on your part. I congratulate your wisdom and restraint. However, by your own admission you are not qualified to dispense advice on medicines to divers, so I still maintain that your admonitions that "Diving with medicine is a bad thing" and "A completely different issue is diving on medications-I wouldn't recommend such a thing" were unnecessarily harsh and restrictive. You are correct, however, that people who are not familiar with the effects and side effects of over-the-counter medications in diving should seek the advice of a medical professional before taking them.

Wouldn't you agree?

Take care,

Bill
 

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