Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[runsongas]

I am not convinced that the majority of experiential divers would care even if they were informed of the difference. they don't plan on diving frequently so why put the time, effort, and money in to do so.

 

[DevonDiver]

I was an experiential diver once. None of us really plan anything UNTIL we're already involved and according to what our opportunities permit.

The problem facing the industry isn't the 'new' demographic of one-timer divers. That's what the big agencies attracted... a new market.

But the "old market" didn't just disappear.. the ones seeking greater quality. And that market has historically kept most dive shops profitable...at all ranges of service and quality.

Where dive shops now struggle... isn't due to a shortage of 'hobbyist', 'serious' or even 'occasional' divers.

The struggle is because ALL divers are fed the same propoganda and misleading marketing.... and once into that system they're unaware of what's better. I'd call it a form of "indoctrination to mediocrity".

When most of those divers do gain experience... and start realising they've been hoodwinked... they don't turn to other dive shops.... they just become cynical of the WHOLE industry.

They'll STILL probably go to mediocre schools.. to get the "licenses" they NEED... but they'll just RESENT doing it.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well, sure. People choose the cheapest airline ticket from the major US airlines with justifiable confidence that what they are trading is money for comfort and time, as their safety is pretty much a given no matter what they choose. All major US airlines are incredibly safe, if you get on the plane you will get off the plane, and 99.99% of the time it will be where you expected to get off the plane and 99% at roughly the time when you expected to get off the plane.

I am not at all sure non-divers understand the implications of their choices of dive training. They are not all comparably assured of the outcome, and the agencies see to make a lot of effort to ensure that non-divers cannot easily determine that there is a difference.

I would disagree with the 99% roughly the same time (on schedule). Perhaps 20 years ago.

 

[dmaziuk]

Kinda, but you have to have the know-how to actually work on your car as well. I dive with plenty of people who can tell me if their first stage is leaking, and some who could even tell where it's likely leaking from, but I don't know a ton of recreational divers who know their regulators well enough to actually fix them.

That, and factor in that something like ALLDATA costs a couple hundred bucks a month, and car maintenance is still super expensive, unless you really know what you're doing.

I believe car analogies are special kind of analogy that make you say something stupid every time you make one. If you don't know what you're doing, you should consider not doing it. FVVO "it".

 

[Bob DBF]

Not just that, but what tthis has shown the majority of customers will prioritize cheap over good. It’s a race to the bottom because that’s what ‘the market’ wants.

@DevonDiver covered the fallacy of that with training, I would like to point out that any SCUBA gear I have seen that is presently sold is good, and adequate for an entry level diver, so in that case there is nothing wrong with buying the low end. If one looks for value for their dollar, they won't find it with a high end titanium regulator.

I dive what some would say are low end regs, probably have worse to say about the vintage stuff, and I have no issues with it down well past recreational depths.


Bob

 

[tursiops]

FVVO "it".

If you are using this acronym correctly, then the sentence makes no sense.
What are you trying to say?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

@boulderjohn
OK, took me a while to find it but here is what we worked out of.
PADI Open Water Manual c 1990 - 1995
Version 1.0
Product No. 70011N (table version)

This is the skills portion only.

Swim test - 200 yards free swim in pool no time limit and any swim style
400 yards mask fins snorkel swim

Module one;
1. Scuba equipment assembly
2. Equipment prep
3. Donning equipment
4. BCD inflation / deflation
5. Introduction to scuba
6 Regulator clearing
7. Regulator recovery
8. Mask Clearing
9. Use of fins
10. Neutral buoyancy at surface
11. Equalization and underwater swimming
12. Descending under water
13. Ascending
14. exiting the water

Module two:
1. predive safety chack
2. controlled seated and giant stride entry
3. snorkel breathing and clearing
4. Snorkel regulator exchanges
5. No mask breathing
6. Mask replacement underwater
7. Proper weighting
8. Surface snorkel
9. Cramp removal
10. Tired diver tow
11. deep water exit

Module three:
1. No mask swimming underwater no less than a distance of 50 feet
2. Neutral buoyancy underwater
3. Use of alternate air source
4. Free flow regulator breathing
5. Controlled emergency swimming ascent - travelling sideways no less than 30 feet while exhaling saying "ahhh".

Module 4:
Proper breathe up for skin diving
Perform a headfirst skin dive down (pike)
Clear and breathe from snorkel upon ascent
Buddy breathe sharing a single air source for a distance of at least 50 feet underwater as both a donor and reciever.

Module 5:
1. Remove, replace, adjust, and secure scuba unit and weights at the surface with minimal assistance in water too deep to stand up in.
2. remove, re[place, adjust scuba unit and weights underwater on the bottom with minimal assistance.
3 React appropriately to air depletion by giving OOA signal - share air.

Open water portion in ocean;

Dive 1.
1. Briefing
2. suit up (no scuba)
3. entry
4. predive acclimation (skin dive)
5. Buoyancy check and adjust
then..
6. Don tank and weights
7. BWRAF
Then entry, buoyancy check, controlled descent, fin pivot, reg recovery and clear, clear partially flooded mask, Alternate air source use stationary.

Dive 2.
Equip check
Cramp removal self and buddy
25 yard tired diver tow
Free descent with reference
Buoyancy control
Complete flood and clearing of mask
Alternate air source assisted ascent

Dive three:
Perform a skin dive and show proper use of snorkel (20 feet in my class)
Proper descent and ascent techniques
Surface swim (kelp crawl in my area)
Underwater swimming with buddies alternate

Dive 4 performance requirements:
50 yard surface swim in a straight line with compass ( diver A out - diver B back)
Snorkel regulator exchange
Free descent without reference to a depth no greater than 60 feet.
Buoyancy conrol - neutral on bottom.
Clear flooded mask
Buddy breathing off one regulator stationary at depth
Buddy breathing off one regulator ascend to surface
Remove/replace scuba unit on surface


Dive 5 performance requirements:
Free descent with no reference to a depth no greater than 60'.
Perform navigation swim underwater (out and back each buddy)
Remove and replace mask underwater
Achieve neutral buoyancy underwater and hover in mid water without swimming.

I guess we did do 5 dives? I couldn't remember.
Seems to me I also remember rolling a weight belt on on the surface and underwater but I can't find it in the manual? It seems I also remember doing a CESA in the ocean with reg in mouth with buddy then trading.

Then there was learning the tables forward and backwards, Pages 195-214.

This was 4 long days, two full weekends. I think there was 8 of us students, plus the instructor, one AI, and two DM's in training.

Hope this helps. I have no idea what they do now days, you know way more than I do.
All I know is there would be no way to do all this in 3 days. My instructor was also an ex Navy guy, Navy Diver. He made sure everybody was thorough with their skills before we hit the ocean because he wanted all of us to pass and he didn't believe in skimping on instruction or letting anybody by easy. He even told us it was going to be that way and our course was going to more than what you would get at a vacation spot (his words). And if anybody was not OK with that they could leave then and they would be refunded their money before the class started.. He did not believe he was doing anybody any favors by letting them through with out doing everything correctly and thoroughly if they were going to be diving on the north coast. Instructor Jerry Meyer MSDT-96801

The next weekend after the class a buddy and I went out and conducted a beach dive on our own at a local beach in 48 degree water with rocks and surf, had a blast. The weekend after that I was on a charter boat in Monterey with the same buddy doing a wall dive at Point Lobos in 95 feet of water using our new shiny tables and loving it!
Nobody drilled into our heads that we were only supposed to go to 60' or we would get our hands slapped, they kind of minimized that part.
But that was then.

 

[dmaziuk]

If you are using this acronym correctly, then the sentence makes no sense.
What are you trying to say?

For Various Values Of.

The post I was replying to had

Kinda, but you have to have the know-how to actually work on your car as well.

and

I don't know a ton of recreational divers who know their regulators well enough to actually fix them.

In the same paragraph, concluding with

car maintenance is still super expensive, unless you really know what you're doing.

I was trying to say I have difficulties parsing that.

 

[tursiops]

I was trying to say I have difficulties parsing that.

Parsing?
You mean, agreeing with? Understanding? Believing?
Do you mean you think even if you know what you are doing, car maintenance is super expensive?

 

[runsongas]

@boulderjohn
OK, took me a while to find it but here is what we worked out of.
PADI Open Water Manual c 1990 - 1995
Version 1.0
Product No. 70011N (table version)

This is the skills portion only.

Swim test - 200 yards free swim in pool no time limit and any swim style
400 yards mask fins snorkel swim

Module one;
1. Scuba equipment assembly
2. Equipment prep
3. Donning equipment
4. BCD inflation / deflation
5. Introduction to scuba
6 Regulator clearing
7. Regulator recovery
8. Mask Clearing
9. Use of fins
10. Neutral buoyancy at surface
11. Equalization and underwater swimming
12. Descending under water
13. Ascending
14. exiting the water

Module two:
1. predive safety chack
2. controlled seated and giant stride entry
3. snorkel breathing and clearing
4. Snorkel regulator exchanges
5. No mask breathing
6. Mask replacement underwater
7. Proper weighting
8. Surface snorkel
9. Cramp removal
10. Tired diver tow
11. deep water exit

Module three:
1. No mask swimming underwater no less than a distance of 50 feet
2. Neutral buoyancy underwater
3. Use of alternate air source
4. Free flow regulator breathing
5. Controlled emergency swimming ascent - travelling sideways no less than 30 feet while exhaling saying "ahhh".

Module 4:
Proper breathe up for skin diving
Perform a headfirst skin dive down (pike)
Clear and breathe from snorkel upon ascent
Buddy breathe sharing a single air source for a distance of at least 50 feet underwater as both a donor and reciever.

Module 5:
1. Remove, replace, adjust, and secure scuba unit and weights at the surface with minimal assistance in water too deep to stand up in.
2. remove, re[place, adjust scuba unit and weights underwater on the bottom with minimal assistance.
3 React appropriately to air depletion by giving OOA signal - share air.

Open water portion in ocean;

Dive 1.
1. Briefing
2. suit up (no scuba)
3. entry
4. predive acclimation (skin dive)
5. Buoyancy check and adjust
then..
6. Don tank and weights
7. BWRAF
Then entry, buoyancy check, controlled descent, fin pivot, reg recovery and clear, clear partially flooded mask, Alternate air source use stationary.

Dive 2.
Equip check
Cramp removal self and buddy
25 yard tired diver tow
Free descent with reference
Buoyancy control
Complete flood and clearing of mask
Alternate air source assisted ascent

Dive three:
Perform a skin dive and show proper use of snorkel (20 feet in my class)
Proper descent and ascent techniques
Surface swim (kelp crawl in my area)
Underwater swimming with buddies alternate

Dive 4 performance requirements:
50 yard surface swim in a straight line with compass ( diver A out - diver B back)
Snorkel regulator exchange
Free descent without reference to a depth no greater than 60 feet.
Buoyancy conrol - neutral on bottom.
Clear flooded mask
Buddy breathing off one regulator stationary at depth
Buddy breathing off one regulator ascend to surface
Remove/replace scuba unit on surface


Dive 5 performance requirements:
Free descent with no reference to a depth no greater than 60'.
Perform navigation swim underwater (out and back each buddy)
Remove and replace mask underwater
Achieve neutral buoyancy underwater and hover in mid water without swimming.

I guess we did do 5 dives? I couldn't remember.
Seems to me I also remember rolling a weight belt on on the surface and underwater but I can't find it in the manual? It seems I also remember doing a CESA in the ocean with reg in mouth with buddy then trading.

Then there was learning the tables forward and backwards, Pages 195-214.

This was 4 long days, two full weekends. I think there was 8 of us students, plus the instructor, one AI, and two DM's in training.

Hope this helps. I have no idea what they do now days, you know way more than I do.
All I know is there would be no way to do all this in 3 days. My instructor was also an ex Navy guy, Navy Diver. He made sure everybody was thorough with their skills before we hit the ocean because he wanted all of us to pass and he didn't believe in skimping on instruction or letting anybody by easy. He even told us it was going to be that way and our course was going to more than what you would get at a vacation spot (his words). And if anybody was not OK with that they could leave then and they would be refunded their money before the class started.. He did not believe he was doing anybody any favors by letting them through with out doing everything correctly and thoroughly if they were going to be diving on the north coast. Instructor Jerry Meyer MSDT-96801

The next weekend after the class a buddy and I went out and conducted a beach dive on our own at a local beach in 48 degree water with rocks and surf, had a blast. The weekend after that I was on a charter boat in Monterey with the same buddy doing a wall dive at Point Lobos in 95 feet of water using our new shiny tables and loving it!
Nobody drilled into our heads that we were only supposed to go to 60' or we would get our hands slapped, they kind of minimized that part.
But that was then.

That isn't much different than my OW class a few years ago. 8 students, 2 instructors, and 1 dm. 2 weekends, 4 full days. We did the skin dive as dive 1 off santa cruz near the lighthouse. Everyone who was in the class and passed would have been capable of diving locally.