I really want to dive Mozambique too!! But I fear I'm not physically strong enough. 
darn it. Finally skilled enough, nolonger strong enough. Sigh.
darn it. Finally skilled enough, nolonger strong enough. Sigh.
Beware lunatic divemasters
- Thread starter Russoft
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Interesting discussion here. What occurs to me is that each diver should assess a dive, even a group dive, and determine if they will do it or not. That said, DM's should not take recreational divers on deco dives that are not advertized as such, have appropriate auxilliary air supplies, and brief on the deco protocols for the dive. It seems to might a dive plan that articulates"we might go into deco if we see some cool stuff" is not much of a dive plan at all.
DivemasterDennis
DivemasterDennis
To OP and others:
Keep in mind that the idea of letting the dive op know what you want to do - and what you don't want to do - on any given dive has implications beyond "comfort level" and "safety" as well. There are two things that every op wants you to have: a safe dive, and a fun dive. Don't stop talking to the DM/guides/op once you've covered off on safety questions. Tell them what "fun" looks like too!
I've been on many dives where the briefing included things that simply weren't of interest to me. For example, on a liveaboard once the guide said something like "And then we'll go down to 100ft or so and check out the garden eels for a while" or similar. Personally, I could go the rest of my life without ever seeing another garden eel.
So I chimed in "Have fun... I'm going to stay up on top of the reef and do my own thing if anyone else wants to join me." I'm not suggesting that everyone should expect every dive plan to change to meet their whim at the moment. But speak up... the op can't read your mind! In this case, bit by bit, it turned out that NO ONE on the boat actually cared about going to look the garden eels. Once the guide became aware of that, the dive plan was changed to accommodate what the customers actually wanted to do! Imagine that.
Keep in mind that the idea of letting the dive op know what you want to do - and what you don't want to do - on any given dive has implications beyond "comfort level" and "safety" as well. There are two things that every op wants you to have: a safe dive, and a fun dive. Don't stop talking to the DM/guides/op once you've covered off on safety questions. Tell them what "fun" looks like too!
I've been on many dives where the briefing included things that simply weren't of interest to me. For example, on a liveaboard once the guide said something like "And then we'll go down to 100ft or so and check out the garden eels for a while" or similar. Personally, I could go the rest of my life without ever seeing another garden eel.
So I chimed in "Have fun... I'm going to stay up on top of the reef and do my own thing if anyone else wants to join me." I'm not suggesting that everyone should expect every dive plan to change to meet their whim at the moment. But speak up... the op can't read your mind! In this case, bit by bit, it turned out that NO ONE on the boat actually cared about going to look the garden eels. Once the guide became aware of that, the dive plan was changed to accommodate what the customers actually wanted to do! Imagine that.
OP
Russoft
Contributor
That's entirely fair. I'm not used to recreational dives that plan on going into deco is all. My next purchase is my own inflatable signal marker so I don't feel tied to the DM during a dive (I don't want to get hit by a boat or left behind because I strayed from the group dive marker). It's easy to get used to following a DM around and not learning to be independent and that's something I want to be better about. My goal is to be more independent on dives and not so dependent on the DM's lead.
Op, I think you are certainly justified to have expressed your desires for an adventure in keeping with your comfort levels and I sympathise with that desire. You take objection to my use of the word nanny which you misunderstand my use. Not intended as an insult but only to point out that often these operations are being pulled in differing directions driven by a desire to accomadate a wide skill levels and provide a dive that satisfies both ends of the spectrum. As you found out and I long ago, somebody is not going to be unsatisfied in this situation. As well people do not really listen thus my emphasis on discussing with them in advance your expectations and let me even say being very clear and insistent. One persons nanny dive could certainly be too much for another diver, my point being both customers have a rightful desire to get the product they thought they were paying for so be clear in the beginning what you want and then the operation can plan to accomadate you or tell you the truth if that is not a product they can provide. We, human nature, tend to think we represent the norm, again, my point or another point, there very well is another customer, equally insistent and demanding and equally rightful wanting that strenuous and energetic product.
Usually these places are pretty good at sizing the customer up, sometimes you just have to get a little in their face, especially if you think someting is dangerous or beyond your skill level. And I would not fault you at all but I will also be on them to take me to that wild place where most do not go because the current is too strong, the sharks too big and the outcome not completely certain, that is where I will be pulling to go and even at your expense, unfortunate but somtimes both cannot have their way. And, as a result I have gotten pretty good at sizing up the operators and at getting my way, big boys and girls, you are going to need to do the same, tell them what you want and expect.
N
Usually these places are pretty good at sizing the customer up, sometimes you just have to get a little in their face, especially if you think someting is dangerous or beyond your skill level. And I would not fault you at all but I will also be on them to take me to that wild place where most do not go because the current is too strong, the sharks too big and the outcome not completely certain, that is where I will be pulling to go and even at your expense, unfortunate but somtimes both cannot have their way. And, as a result I have gotten pretty good at sizing up the operators and at getting my way, big boys and girls, you are going to need to do the same, tell them what you want and expect.
N
Although I agree that running up 20 minutes of deco with non-deco trained divers (and I assume on a single tank) is pretty dubious, I think the overall message here is that when everybody spoke up, the dive op changed the dives and folks had fun. As with so much else in diving, communication BEFORE you get in the water would have been key here to avoid issues. And you have also correctly identified the problem, that you did not feel able to execute the dive without assistance, because a dive involves entry, descent, bottom time, ascent and exit, and you were not able to do the last two without assistance. Fixing that problem will make things easier for you, in the event that you get involved with a dive that does not go as briefed, or if for any other reason you want to end a dive early.
BTW, a profile that gets gradually slightly deeper doesn't bother me at all. We do a lot of terrain-based diving, and this happens sometimes. That's where computers are very good at doing the iterative calculations of nitrogen loading (and some algorithms are pretty unhappy with this type of profile, and will definitely cut your bottom time).
BTW, a profile that gets gradually slightly deeper doesn't bother me at all. We do a lot of terrain-based diving, and this happens sometimes. That's where computers are very good at doing the iterative calculations of nitrogen loading (and some algorithms are pretty unhappy with this type of profile, and will definitely cut your bottom time).
phoenix31tt
Contributor
was it really deco dives? I've heard divemasters joke about going into deco if they see something nice, but never actually did it. How close were you to deco when you called the dive? Diving on some of the walls in GC we really pushed the deco limits @ >100 feet but never actually went into deco... did add'l/extended stops @ 30-20-10 feet just in case but it was all precautionary (I wonder if another person would call that going into deco?)
I guess it's easy for regular divers to say "you can choose not to dive" and I agree. however I suspect the mindset of someone who only has the opportunity to dive on vacation which they have possibly saved hard for and looked forward too puts them in a different mindset. The thought of missing a dive...
As an example, last year my wife on I were on a liveaboard. it was day 6 and we'd just dived Richelieu Rock in Thailand (dive 17). The dive was just Oky, for us nothing spectacular and not worth the hype, but our back yard is pretty darn good. Anyhow as we'd surfaced there was a bit of swell and it needed caution to get back on the boat. Nothing major, we've dived much worse. However we decided during the surface interval we weren't going to do a second. The sea as getting up and it was going to be "sporty" if it got worse. We weren't concerned as when we got home we would dive at the weekend anyway. We communicated our intentions to our guide.
I guess some others on the boat looked to us as experienced and wondered why we were calling the dive. we played it down (in our hearts we knew that the surface conditions were above the capabilities of 40-50% of the divers - but not our boat not our call.
As it happened 30 mins later the dive staff called the dive anyway the sea was getting too rough. I can't help wondering if our decision influenced the DM's decision, and we deprived all the others of a dive. Nothing was said and no one had grumps with us.
The fact is if those had been the only dives I would have been doing for the next six months and if the site had been amazing, with mantas and whale sharks etc etc I probably would have dived in those conditions and dealt with it at the surface - not great but not life threatening.
circumstances and affect the decision
As an example, last year my wife on I were on a liveaboard. it was day 6 and we'd just dived Richelieu Rock in Thailand (dive 17). The dive was just Oky, for us nothing spectacular and not worth the hype, but our back yard is pretty darn good. Anyhow as we'd surfaced there was a bit of swell and it needed caution to get back on the boat. Nothing major, we've dived much worse. However we decided during the surface interval we weren't going to do a second. The sea as getting up and it was going to be "sporty" if it got worse. We weren't concerned as when we got home we would dive at the weekend anyway. We communicated our intentions to our guide.
I guess some others on the boat looked to us as experienced and wondered why we were calling the dive. we played it down (in our hearts we knew that the surface conditions were above the capabilities of 40-50% of the divers - but not our boat not our call.
As it happened 30 mins later the dive staff called the dive anyway the sea was getting too rough. I can't help wondering if our decision influenced the DM's decision, and we deprived all the others of a dive. Nothing was said and no one had grumps with us.
The fact is if those had been the only dives I would have been doing for the next six months and if the site had been amazing, with mantas and whale sharks etc etc I probably would have dived in those conditions and dealt with it at the surface - not great but not life threatening.
circumstances and affect the decision
KevinNM
Contributor
It's also possible the DMs were not in deco, but the OP was per his computer. There is a broad grey area where various algorithms and implementations can have pretty different outputs.
It sounds like the DMs (or someone) suggested ahead of time that slipping into deco was a possibility.
Not that it's a good idea if you don't know how to plan such a dive, but it's very possible for a diver's computer to indicate that they are (or soon will be) in a deco situation at a certain depth... without that REALLY being the case based on the dive plan. This might be due to the computer not knowing what the REST of the dive looks like. I've done plenty of multi-level dives where the computer shows I've only got 1-2min of NDL left at, say, 70ft. However, if I have a plan (and follow it) that includes ascending to 40ft at that point in the dive and swimming back to the exit point along the top of the reef... my computer may well show that I now have 23min of NDL remaining at the shallower depth.
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