Before you take your open water course

[seaducer]

That particular drill is another remnant of the military mindset; keeping your rifle out of the water while you swim or get swept toward the beach. It'll probably work for the M16 but it's a little light for the M14.

OR, you are on the surface, in an emergency that is going to cause you to ditch your wieght. Now you know you can keep your head close to the surface while fumbling with your releases. Minutes long would be excessive I agree, but the ability to do it for a minute is a great test. Should it be required? I am not qualified to say. I do recommend people be able to perform it though. Honestly, it is not that difficult to do. Most people who think they can't probably could, with little effort. It just sounds hard.

I'm not arguing that potential divers shouldn't be required to swim but perhaps the qualification could be made relevant. Maybe a backstroke on the surface wearing full scuba equipment? Or maybe swimming underwater using full scuba equipment. How about a surface swim with mask, snorkel and fins. Oh wait, PADI does allow that. True, it's 300m rather than 200m but at least it is somewhat related to diving.

A surface swim with no gear, in a pool, just isn't relevant. It's being used as a filter. And the longer the swim, the shorter the time, the less porous the filter.

Well, most agencies I am aware of allow the use of any and all strokes, with no time limit. I like the idea of surface swimming with equipment, that is a good test. That is kind of done with the tired diver tow, but an independent surface swim with full gear would be a nice addition to the standards. I wonder why no one has thought of this?
I still disagree that regular swimming should not be required. There is no way you would get me anywhere near scuba if I couldn't swim. The agency requirements honestly are a joke, I mean I did my PADI swim with one arm in side stroke and never bothered to rest it.
However, I do think the current requirements ARE sufficient to prove ability. And since we are talking about scuba class and not swim class I have no issues with leaving the standards where they currently are.

What Slonda is saying is that if you want to excell in class, be able to swim 500 meters. I will take it farther and say that if you can't swim at least that far, and you still dive, you are putting yourself at risk for a potential incident, and I would say you owe it to yourself and your loved ones to get in a pool and become a more proficient swimmer. I say this not to put anyone down who can't perform to a 500 meter swim, but simply as someone with a general concern for people who through similar interests I feel a loose fraternity.
Bear in mind, this is coming from someone who can swim a mile, but got his @$$ kicked by somebody's cute little grandmother in spinning class tonight. Clearly I have work to do as well. And if I can be half as in shape as she was at her age, well, I would be very happy...

Strengthening the swimming test to filter out candidates in an attempt to reduce turnover seems questionable. Who cares about the turnover rate? People come, people go, some stay longer than others.

I am not positive that this is not a strawman. I would have to go back through the thread but I am pretty sure I have only seen you make this claim.

At any rate I am not interested in filtering out any candidates. But it sure would be nice if some people took the time to prepare themselves for the class. It can be hard enough to learn some of those skills and become comfortable in the gear as it is. I can't imagine struggling to catch your breath is any help what-so-ever. Nor is the underlieing fear that you are about to drown because you can't swim at all.

You know, thinking about it now. I attended a seminar a couple months back about the able bodied buddy program for HSA. I would love to do this and am trying to get in a class. Digressing, they mentioned some of the requirements for handicapped people to become certified divers. I was impressed. Some of them are harder than the agencies that certified us. And these are people with a legitimate excuse to perform to lower standards than us. Yet somehow they manage. Inspiring examples of humanity.

 

[seaducer]

I'm sure his opinions are valued and welcomed, but i would much rather have them read off by someone in the position to do it.

So are you saying these tips make more sense if they come from an instructor

Like if he lied and said he as an instructor for 3 agencies, you would have no issue with the website? Suddenly the tips are perfect?

Personally I prefer to evaluate an idea, concept, or post based on the information it contains, and not the background of the poster.

 

[Thalassamania]

Well, for starters.. i dont come off sounding pretentious in anyway.

Ok seriously, you know this guy is telling EVERYONE to go check out his site before prepping for diving.

Dont you think he might be turning off some people from enjoying a wonderful hobbie? A hobbie that honestly (depending on where you go) all you really need to do is use a 1/2 of your brain to do to pass perfectly?

You won't find any half wits passing my classes.

Diving isnt hard and following some guidelines that are not coming from an expirienced diver with proper credentials is pretty retarded.

Since most of what he posted on his site came from books that I authored, please consider the recomendations as coming for a diver with at least a bare modicum of experience.

Diving requires attention and has no room for super heros.


I pass good points on to new divers just like anyone else here.. but i dont make a freakin website about it! it's a forum!

I have no credentials.. or at least any valid ones, and I wouldnt praise my own skill by creating site that has "perfect" tips for pre diving. I'm sure his opinions are valued and welcomed, but i would much rather have them read off by someone in the position to do it.

"oi, i cant swim 25m.. i'm not going to dive.. THANK YOU SIR!" That's pure stupid.

Is it? If you lack the watermanship to swim 25 meters I frankly don't think you have any business trying to learn to dive.

Dear new divers,

please dont even check your PADI course books, just ask these guys... it appears suggestions are better than manuals!

I say, considering the original sources of those suggestions that you are correct

ok.. well, come diving here some time.. let's see a master work!

People I like, or respect, I work for free, or just expenses, otherwise it's $2,000 a week, and even then ... only if the project or people interest me.

holy jeez, are you guys even reading the entire responses or just quickly summarizing?

i'll put it out in engrish

Er ... "English."

He works at a dive shop

He does?

new divers walk into the shop

he gives them website

OK

he's not in any position to instruct divers on being able to prepare yourself for diving

Sure he is ... he's quoting me and the team of experts that put together both New Science and the NAUI text.

customer takes it the other way

customer doesnt take course

Good thing, if the customer had taken the course, he or she whould have dropped out after then last checkout dive, never have bought any more gear than mask, fins and snorkel, and that they'd have flogged on e-Bay costing some poor LDS a sale. Had they gone and gotten comfortable with the water first they'd have dropped three grand a piece after the last wonderful checkout, been back for drysuits, doubles and a scooter and joined the WKKP.

dive shop loses money

Only when they train people who are prepped to drop out, when they train divers that are prepped to succeed they make lots of money.

I dont care if you put this stuff up on a website... I just hope you're not sending potential customers to the site as A: it's not a PADI guideline B: you're not an instructor

Why give a flying-F if it's PADI or not? Or if he's an instructor, instructors today are a dime a dozen, we require that they register with the local police when they move into the community.

See now, that's something i can agree with.
so i apologize for a lot of what was said..

except for one thing.. you like to teach, but a DM doesnt mean you can teach.

A NAUI DM can do a significant amount of teaching.

you still have to take the instructor course for PADI.

No you don't.

It makes sense to have some guidelines, but the PADI ones are good enough..

I'm sure you've the expertise to make that judgment. Just how many different agency standards are you intimately familiar with?

When I look for new certs, i look to see what other certifications the instructor has, in my case my instructor is PADI and also GUE, and to pass gue... you need to use your WHOLE brain..

Well, you take my class you'll need two brains ... bring a buddy, buddy-braining is good.

This is from NAUI's website:

"An active-status NAUI Divemaster is qualified to assist an active-status NAUI Instructor in diving courses."

I am not on active status yet, so all I do is help out under direct supervision of my boss. You have to remember that different agencies have different standards. Don't feel bad, I'm still wrong a lot too because I don't know all the different standards.

Yes, a NAUI DM is the equal of a NAUI Instructor in terms of diving knowledge and skills, the difference is only that the instructor has additional training for handling new students and the DM for handling certified divers.

Exactly.
Same type deal for DM for Padi, you can watch.. but that's about it.
I just assumed that you were without a great deal of knowledge because of your profile.

so i apologize

It's nice that you apologize, show us some real action, go back and edit all those posts where you display your ignorance.

So are you saying these tips make more sense if they come from an instructor

Like if he lied and said he as an instructor for 3 agencies, you would have no issue with the website? Suddenly the tips are perfect?

Personally I prefer to evaluate an idea, concept, or post based on the information it contains, and not the background of the poster.

It's the logical fallacy called, "appeal to authority," you attack the credential rather than the idea.

 

[seaducer]

Or if he's an instructor, instructors today are a dime a dozen, we require that they register with the local police when they move into the community.

You owe me a coffee and a keyboard. I wasn't ready for that this morning!

 

[Slonda828]

So I was wondering about what article to add to the site next. I would love to post an article authored by someone else, or at least precipitated by someone else. Who has witnessed a training hurdle that can be overcome with practice and training and is willing to share it?

Thal, Seaducer, Ro, Sas, Nude, etc. do any of you have something that you would like to post illustrating your thoughts?

 

[BDSC]

So Slonda828, any thoughts on split fins vs paddle fins?

 

[Slonda828]

So Slonda828, any thoughts on split fins vs paddle fins?

I put a little blurb on the page about them, but I just wanted people to know that there are really two types. I have both and I really don't have any data to back up which is better, so I just put up pictures of prototypical split and paddle fins so people would know what they look like.

Do you have any thought?

 

[BDSC]

I have both, use both, and to be quite honest I don't know that I can tell any real difference in them. Some people swear by one or the other but either is fine with me.

 

[seaducer]

So I was wondering about what article to add to the site next. I would love to post an article authored by someone else, or at least precipitated by someone else. Who has witnessed a training hurdle that can be overcome with practice and training and is willing to share it?

Thal, Seaducer, Ro, Sas, Nude, etc. do any of you have something that you would like to post illustrating your thoughts?

I might be able to put something together, though most of my writing energy is being focused on school at this time. No time limit, or promises that it will be any good and worth actually posting

 

[askdjasd]

I have a pair of split fins currently, they are amazing. lots of hate about them. to take away control, you get more speed.
splits are good for surface swim and i dont have a problem with them at depth.... I can seem to control myself pretty well at depth.

i recently started learning to frog kick and I have to give up my splitties, tried doing some frog kicks on a dive with turtle fins, i found i had way more control, i could spin around easier, remain still with very minor leg movements and be able to adjust position quicker.