Basic rules broken become near miss

[NAM001]

diving cave filled doubles in wet suit and had wing failure (blown seam). never again ,,,,, will not dive doubles with out dry suit.

 

[Scuba Cobra]

diving cave filled doubles in wet suit and had wing failure (blown seam). never again ,,,,, will not dive doubles with out dry suit.

Won't dive doubles doubles, or won't dive STEEL doubles?

 

[Kay Dee]

diving cave filled doubles in wet suit and had wing failure (blown seam). never again ,,,,, will not dive doubles with out dry suit.

I never dove doubles, steel or ally's, in a wetsuit without a dual bladder wing setup. Seen a few instances of what you describe above and it wasn't pretty. But at least in a cave, you can, god forbid, 'crawl' your way out / back to the surface in such an emergency (in 'most' situations, but not all). Not so on a deep wreck though!

 

[NAM001]

I never dove doubles, steel or ally's, in a wetsuit without a dual bladder wing setup. Seen a few instances of what you describe above and it wasn't pretty. But at least in a cave, you can, god forbid, 'crawl' your way out / back to the surface in such an emergency (in 'most' situations, but not all). Not so on a deep wreck though!

I blew my wing 400 ft in to a cave. My concern was that when crawling out i would crawl across a deep pit filled with silt and dissappear. we got out and then did not have enough lift to get to the surface had to have buddy assist to get there and it was a struggle. NO i did not have a lift bag. LIft bags would IMP only be usefull if youhad a hard bottom to work from. a bottomless pit I don't know if I could have successfully been able to deploy the bag. Since I decided that purging into the set suit would have provided the same function of a dry suit to get to the surface. That ws in hind sight. I was prepared to fill the wing tear down and and start purging the tank psi down to remove weight if needed. was using lp85's at 4k when the dive started. Probably had 3500 still in the tanks.

Either way it was a lesson in preparation for unknown unknowns. I can now use teh wet suit as a lift device rather easily now. Takes a little practice for it is a quick learning curve. fill and vent at the neck. if a shorty fill at the leg.

 

[Zef]

NO i did not have a lift bag. LIft bags would IMP only be usefull if youhad a hard bottom to work from. a bottomless pit I don't know if I could have successfully been able to deploy the bag.

Could you explain your statements about why one would need a hard bottom to deploy a liftbag and why you don't think you could have successfully deployed the bag?

-Z

 

[NAM001]

Could you explain your statements about why one would need a hard bottom to deploy a liftbag and why you don't think you could have successfully deployed the bag?

-Z

certainly . the time required to do that with a rather high decent rate from being over weight from the gas being carried. continual loss of stability in the water . ear clearing robbing time to get out and deploy the bag. If you have a hard bottom you can only sink so far until you hit bottom at say 100 ft or what ever. It takes most people I know a couple of minutes to prepare to shoot a buoy from start let alone get it shot. a lift bag for me is even worse to do. That couple of minutes can equate to a lot of downward depth change, especially if you are already deep to start with. the dry suit is almost instant compensation for a loss of the wing with minimal stress of anxiety or ear clearing and trim in the process.

The hard bottom in not necessary to deploy but it prevents you from dropping to deep before other negative factors take over. lost light ear pain panic etc. I personally did not think at all about ever loosing a wing when it happened and not till then did I realize the potential problems I would have had . had there not been a hard bottom. It was a live and learn moment for sure. Im not even sure that I can find a way to rapidly be able to inflate any device in less than 30 seconds or so. I have a bouy to shoot but the stowage and other factors are not conducive for rapid deployment. Im open to any suggestions as to how to do it. I have always wondered why we don't still use a horse collar f some sorts for this very situation. something like a device connected between the upper chest d rings where all you have to do is move the inflator hose form the wing to the device. Many say use double bladder wing. Many say the double wing is not to be trusted because of long period lack of use. Even a dry suit inflator unit on a wet suit could be useful to provide a some what quick ability to react. this is one of my things to work this year if i can find water to do it in safely. 20# of gas is hard to work with when you loose a wing. That is quite often the case with cave fills.

 

[Edward3c]

certainly . the time required to do that with a rather high decent rate from being over weight from the gas being carried. continual loss of stability in the water . ear clearing robbing time to get out and deploy the bag. If you have a hard bottom you can only sink so far until you hit bottom at say 100 ft or what ever. It takes most people I know a couple of minutes to prepare to shoot a buoy from start let alone get it shot. a lift bag for me is even worse to do. That couple of minutes can equate to a lot of downward depth change, especially if you are already deep to start with. the dry suit is almost instant compensation for a loss of the wing with minimal stress of anxiety or ear clearing and trim in the process.

The hard bottom in not necessary to deploy but it prevents you from dropping to deep before other negative factors take over. lost light ear pain panic etc. I personally did not think at all about ever loosing a wing when it happened and not till then did I realize the potential problems I would have had . had there not been a hard bottom. It was a live and learn moment for sure. Im not even sure that I can find a way to rapidly be able to inflate any device in less than 30 seconds or so. I have a bouy to shoot but the stowage and other factors are not conducive for rapid deployment. Im open to any suggestions as to how to do it. I have always wondered why we don't still use a horse collar f some sorts for this very situation. something like a device connected between the upper chest d rings where all you have to do is move the inflator hose form the wing to the device. Many say use double bladder wing. Many say the double wing is not to be trusted because of long period lack of use. Even a dry suit inflator unit on a wet suit could be useful to provide a some what quick ability to react. this is one of my things to work this year if i can find water to do it in safely. 20# of gas is hard to work with when you loose a wing. That is quite often the case with cave fills.

I use a scenario like you describe as a discussion point when running BSAC’s Buoyancy & Trim Workshop. I get the occasional student boasting that they don’t need dupable weight, or an secondary buoyancy device.

 

[Kay Dee]

Many say use double bladder wing. Many say the double wing is not to be trusted because of long period lack of use.

Well that only rings true if your (the blanket 'your' that is) slack with looking after / maintaining your equipment. After all, simply inflate / use one wing on one dive, then inflate / use the other (back-up) wing on the next dive, etc, should at least allay ones fears of it not working from lack of use. Regular maintenance (of all equipment) is another issue altogether of course.

 

[nippurmagnum]

I basically agree but would suggest that it's a better distinction to say that this thread proves that nobody is infallible, not that anyone is a "good diver".

I agree. It's easy to say "plan your dive and dive your plan." But to quote that great philosopher Mike Tyson, "everyone has a plan until he gets punched in the face." In your case, you let your guard down and got hit by a 1-2 combination of excessive depth and underweighting. But you didn't lose your nerve, you did the required deco (however inelegantly) and you lived to tell the tale and learn from it. I'd say that you learned more from that dive than from 50 dives that might have gone uneventfully and according to plan.

 

[NAM001]

Well that only rings true if your (the blanket 'your' that is) slack with looking after / maintaining your equipment. After all, simply inflate / use one wing on one dive, then inflate / use the other (back-up) wing on the next dive, etc, should at least allay ones fears of it not working from lack of use. Regular maintenance (of all equipment) is another issue altogether of course.

Yes i have heard all those positions before. most teh argument is IMO based in the DIR community where now you have to either move the inflator LP hose or have an additional hose creating another failure point. Im not saying I agree or not , just that has been the point of the opposition to using dual bladder. The other one is that if you have a leak in one and start to get light it takes a bit of time to figure which wing is filling to correct the problem along with it is one more fill valve again to fail along with fill hose and but vents. Again not agreeing or not agreeing just regurgitating opinions of others. As far as I know the standard is till to have the fill valve on the left. gear location is based on that such where to wear you puter etc. for most that have a dual bladder and only use one side there is a potential on not using the right side for a long time. .

With a dry suit you are using both devices all the time. the suit to keep the squeeze off and the wing to control buoyancy. With a wing you have a lp hose a fill vent valve a butt vent and perhaps more for one bladder. now you double that for the double bladder. on this and by experience you are doubling failure points. schrader valves either adjust fine or they don't. I have had wings that have been compressed for some time and to inflate them the bladder insides from prior use stick together from heat and compression. If as in another post any slack maintenance of the gear can really compound the chances of a failure. then there is the poor shop maintenance that actually caused the failures.