Bashing Each other, It is not necessary. I seem to have done it then I apologize.

[rmediver2002]

I have been diving in PC, FL. Who do you suggest for instruction? and COuld you please, if you don't mind, answer my reg question?

Chickdiver got the regulator question, I do not have any experience with the Sherwood line of products.

As far as instruction goes... it is really going to depend on your specific interest.

My observation has been that it has everything to do with the instructors passion and interests...

Let me know what type of class you are interested in taking and I will send you some contact information.

Regardless of the recommendations you recieve though, make your own determination. If you do not get along with the instructor or feel they are being dishonest or incorrect about something do some research on your own and if need find another instructor.

I tell all my students not to believe anything I or any other instructor says if they can not provide a reference and / or an explaination for it... Diving is a sport / passion that requires some degree of self education and this board can be a great tool for that, question everything and make your own educated decisions...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dear beachdivequeenbelam:

a) A Master Instructor doesn't mean jack in the Cave community. That's a PADI standard. Unless you're going to tell us he's NACD/NCCSD or whatever certified, a PADI instructor ain't taking you into any caves.

Well it means something. LOL

b) No self respecting technical diver is going to go into a tech dive - including a Florida cave dive - with a Sherwood Reg. Unless you're in a Mexican Cenote or something, depths are quickly going to be something a Sherwood just can't handle.

Absolutely not true. I have a sherwood first stage on my argon bottle.

c) No self-respecting tech diver is going to use a reg that loops under the arm. That makes it near impossible to donate air from the primary reg.

Shoot, mine not only goes under my arm but also under my can light and around the back of my neck. LOL

 

[beachdivequeenbelam]

I'm probably going to take a bullet for this one. But I mean for this to be constructive and kind.

Beachdivequeenbelam:

In this thread I see a lot of talk about (and emphasis placed upon) getting certification cards.

Is your goal to get a stack of certification cards or is your goal to learn more about diving? (rhetorical question)

Personally, I've had a basic cert since '79 and dove a lot until I found a full semester class at a University in '85. I took the class from an individual who was considered to be an excellent instructor by many other instructors. He was a UDT diver in the Navy (I believe one of the first) and started diving as a kid in the limestone caverns of the midwest with a Model A waterpump for a regulator. He was facinating!

I really didn't go for (or care about) the cert. In fact, all I got was another basic cert from L.A. County and that's still all I have. But I learned a tremendous amount from this instructor. I've had instructors tell me that his class taught people more than some instructor level classes taught. (I'm not saying that it's true, just that this is how well he was respected by other instructors.) By the way, I'm sure some of the students thought he was very rude!

We learned about bouyancy, navigation, rescue, search and salvage and much more. We learned the physics behind diving like Dalton's Law, Charles Law, Boyle's Law, etc. We did lot's of drills including finding hammers, nails, and boards scattered on the pool bottom and putting them together all while our masks were blacked out. In the middle of those drills he would shut our air off and make us buddy breathe with a buddy that we could not see but still needed to maintain close contact with. (By the way, I don't want to get into whether these "stress" tests are good or bad, those were other times.) I even got a good tip on cooking lobster.

Some of what I did in that class was review and some of it was new to me. But... it was all valuable to me.

Then I dove a lot until the 90's and life got in the way. After having been dry for a long time, I'm now getting ready to start diving again and will probably take an Advanced Open Water class to get started again (providing the instructor allows it). I'm not taking the class to get the cert, but because I want to learn about any changes in the way things are done. Then I will take a DIR-F class after getting some of the rust out, because I believe I will learn a whole lot. I don't care if I get the cert, I just want to be a better diver. I'll probably go on to Nitrox classes and "tech" classes, because they offer information which was previously unavailable to me.

I've had what some would consider to be a lot of diving experience (I don't believe that myself and I'm sure that neither would many people on this board), but I am now coming back into diving with the attitude that I'm a novice diver and that I have a lot to learn. It doesn't matter that I dove off the beach with twin 72s and a scooter in the "good 'ol days". I believe that I'm starting from scratch and that I have a lot to learn. My old experience doesn't mean squat anymore. Equipment has changed. Procedures have changed. That was then and this is now. I've learned a lot from the people on this board. I've learned from both the "nice" ones and the "rude" ones and thank them both for sharing their wisdom with me.

Here is my point.

I've been around for a while (even worked in a dive shop) and don't think of myself as a great diver. I believe I've got a lot to learn and am willing to do so. If I were to keep telling people how great I was and defending how I did things "the old way", then I'd expect that no one would really want to waste their time trying to teach me anything.

In a post, I'll mention what I've done in the past to give someone a frame of reference. Sometimes, I might get slammed for my "ignorance". I'm sure some people are horrified and think I'm an accident waiting to happen. But that's a good thing. When they tell me that I might want to re-think what I'm doing or that I'm doing it wrong, I try not to get defensive about it. After all, I asked and they usually have a point. This is especially true when I hear the same thing from multiple people.

In general, I also find if someone starts to defend themselves in what appears to be a hysterical manner by personally attacking those that disagree, that more attacks will come. Then nothing is really learned except that the person that was "bashed" can ALSO be rude.

I hope you take this in the spirit with which it was intended. I'm not bashing anyone here. But I'm willing to take a bullet!

Christian

I already said I was getting rude myself, and I apologized for that. I am getting the cards so I can get the education. I don't care if I actually get the cards, just the education that goes with them. Anyway Thank you for comments. My instructor also teaches for a college and has for over 10 years and never has one of his students died and very few have ever gotten hurt. Those that got hurt were after they left and it was something like a jellyfish or something beyond anyone's control. He didn't black out our mask but he does make us buddy breathe and exchange all of our gear underwater with and without a mask

 

[beachdivequeenbelam]

I am a Full Cave diver as well as a Cave Instructor (NACD) with 10 years experience. To address your question about the regulator:

Sherwood (which I am quite familiar with, being a certified Sherwood repair tech) does not make what is considered a "high performance" 1st stage. THe diver using a low performance 1st stage is at higher risk for CO2 retention. CO2 retention leads to a number of problems , the mildest of which is a wicked headache resulting from exertion - exertion is a common component of cave and technical diving. The "under the arm" hose routing isn't used by any cave diver I have ever seen. Cave and tech divers utilize a completly different equipment configuration which includes a 7' LP hose on the primary (breathed) regulator. Additionally, the elbows and swivels involved in routing a hose under the arm constitute more O rings= more potential failure points.

What do you mean by high performance?
So before doing any cave and tech diving I would need new equipment , which I had planned on getting anyway. I guess my question here is,
If I have such a bad regualtor
(and it was rated so highly by all the dive magazines, and the people I have talked to that think the sherwood is an excellent reg,)
then should I call Sherwood and tell them I was told by tech divers and someone (one person) who works on their regs that I want my money back because my reg is a low performance reg and I had wanted one that was high performance?
WEll I really like my reg and I think it works good and I have never gotten a headache but once when I was diving. I got the headache that one time because I get migraines and when the weather is going to get really bad I can feel it.

Thank you for your advice, so in your opinion, what should I get when I decide to get into cave diving? You and I are about the same size so what is your suggestion?

 

[beachdivequeenbelam]

Well it means something. LOL

Absolutely not true. I have a sherwood first stage on my argon bottle.

Shoot, mine not only goes under my arm but also under my can light and around the back of my neck. LOL

Thank you so much. I wasn't going to get in a pissing contest about my reg because I believe that SHerwoods are great personally and I have tried many different ones before I decided on my Maximus.
I have a 7 ft line on both my primary and my octo.

What do you think is a good setup? I would like to do some cave diving after I get someone to certify me in it. I want to be saving up from now until then. It will proably be a few years because I have little ones.

 

[headhunter]

I already said I was getting rude myself, and I apologized for that.

Since this is a thread specifically about how apparently it's unacceptable to be rude (my words) and it was a thread started by you, I feel that what I am about to post is on topic and pertinent to the discussion. I don't intend it to be rude, but it may be perceived as such. This is not an attack on you, but simply the academic treatment of a controversial subject. Had you not brought it up in a public forum as a question about being rude, I would have confined the following to a PM.

I know you admitted to being rude yourself and apologized. I think it was appreciated by those who felt that they were on the receiving end of your rudeness. I believe that you really don't want to be rude and that if you are, you don't start out meaning to be. That having been said, it seems that even after your admission and apology you have said a few things that may be perceived as rude (even if you didn't intend them to be).

Here are some examples of what I'm referring to that occured AFTER your apology:

If they can't find a way to say it in a constructive nicer way I wish they would just shut up.

That just sounds like an inflamatory statement to me. I could be wrong and it may just be the way I'm reading it, but when I read "I wish they would just shut up", it sounds rude to me.

Later you mention that your instructor won't train you in cave diving, but that you would like to do that in the future. You go on to mention that that is the reason you bought your Maximus reg. To me, posting the specific brand and model of reg you bought within the context of using it for cave diving in the future in a public forum is an open invitation to cave divers to comment on your choice of equipment. That includes positive or negative comments. Boogie and ChickDiver posted negative comments and MikeF said that he used this reg on his stage bottle. I'll note that he did not comment on what he thought of the reg as a primary or secondary reg.

You went on to respond to Boogie with this:

First of all I am not a tech diver and two I really don't care what you say about my equipment because I like it. You don't like Sherwood, I do and thats not our problem. Not being a tech diver doesn't mean you are a nobody. I personally think tech divers take a lot of risks that are unnecessary and I constantly read about them dying, GO figure. You guys think you better than the rest of us and that you are always right so it is no wonder. Unless you plan on telling me why I should not dive with the Sherwood then you are right just leave me alone??? Well got anything of use to say about this reg?

In my opinion, not only did you tell him that you didn't care what he had to say about your equipment, but you went on to insult ALL tech divers by saying that they took unnecessary risks and inferred that they were "constantly" dying as a result. You topped this off with a "GO figure". To me that sounded like you were goading the entire tech community to come out and brawl with you. As I mentioned before, I give you the benefit of the doubt and don't think you intended that to sound rude, but that's how I saw it.

There is a PADI Cave diving cert which he can teach but the macho Tech trimix stuff he doesn't teach because he is more concerned with having safe and responsible divers in the water and getting people into the water than going 2 million feet to the bottom of the ocean to prove he can.

As you admitted later there is no PADI Cave Diving cert, but in your admission you refer to Boogie as "Mr. Tech Diver" which in this context sounds like a jab. Then you referred to "macho Tech trimix stuff" and went on to infer that your instructor doesn't teach this because the people using this stuff were unsafe and irresponsible because they went to "2 million" feet just to prove they could. This was inflammatory enough to get an immediate response from our very diplomatic rmediver2002 telling you that you shouldn't make comments about things you apparently know nothing about (my paraphrase).

So, in my opinion, you are throwing an awful lot of stones in this glass house that you built.

To temper my comments, I do see that you are honestly eager to learn and again I don't believe that you are doing this with malice. Please take my comments as the constructive participation in a topic that you started. I mean no offense in any way and will even apologize in advance if you take it that way.

I encourage you to continue posting your questions and participating in the discussions here at ScubaBoard. I think that your participation will ultimately enrich the community and provide you with answers that you may not be able to find on your own.

Best regards.

Christian

 

[beachdivequeenbelam]

Since this is a thread specifically about how apparently it's unacceptable to be rude (my words) and it was a thread started by you, I feel that what I am about to post is on topic and pertinent to the discussion. I don't intend it to be rude, but it may be perceived as such. This is not an attack on you, but simply the academic treatment of a controversial subject. Had you not brought it up in a public forum as a question about being rude, I would have confined the following to a PM.

I know you admitted to being rude yourself and apologized. I think it was appreciated by those who felt that they were on the receiving end of your rudeness. I believe that you really don't want to be rude and that if you are, you don't start out meaning to be. That having been said, it seems that even after your admission and apology you have said a few things that may be perceived as rude (even if you didn't intend them to be).

Here are some examples of what I'm referring to that occured AFTER your apology:



That just sounds like an inflamatory statement to me. I could be wrong and it may just be the way I'm reading it, but when I read "I wish they would just shut up", it sounds rude to me.

Later you mention that your instructor won't train you in cave diving, but that you would like to do that in the future. You go on to mention that that is the reason you bought your Maximus reg. To me, posting the specific brand and model of reg you bought within the context of using it for cave diving in the future in a public forum is an open invitation to cave divers to comment on your choice of equipment. That includes positive or negative comments. Boogie and ChickDiver posted negative comments and MikeF said that he used this reg on his stage bottle. I'll note that he did not comment on what he thought of the reg as a primary or secondary reg.

You went on to respond to Boogie with this:



In my opinion, not only did you tell him that you didn't care what he had to say about your equipment, but you went on to insult ALL tech divers by saying that they took unnecessary risks and inferred that they were "constantly" dying as a result. You topped this off with a "GO figure". To me that sounded like you were goading the entire tech community to come out and brawl with you. As I mentioned before, I give you the benefit of the doubt and don't think you intended that to sound rude, but that's how I saw it.



As you admitted later there is no PADI Cave Diving cert, but in your admission you refer to Boogie as "Mr. Tech Diver" which in this context sounds like a jab. Then you referred to "macho Tech trimix stuff" and went on to infer that your instructor doesn't teach this because the people using this stuff were unsafe and irresponsible because they went to "2 million" feet just to prove they could. This was inflammatory enough to get an immediate response from our very diplomatic rmediver2002 telling you that you shouldn't make comments about things you apparently know nothing about (my paraphrase).

So, in my opinion, you are throwing an awful lot of stones in this glass house that you built.

To temper my comments, I do see that you are honestly eager to learn and again I don't believe that you are doing this with malice. Please take my comments as the constructive participation in a topic that you started. I mean no offense in any way and will even apologize in advance if you take it that way.

I encourage you to continue posting your questions and participating in the discussions here at ScubaBoard. I think that your participation will ultimately enrich the community and provide you with answers that you may not be able to find on your own.

Best regards.

Christian

My intention was not to be rude, and I will admit when people rub me the wrong I eventually respond to them in the same way. They are tech divers that are safe, but I have meet one in person who was nice to others just diving air on the dive site. I have seen the same people at the bar or restrurants and they are ok. My instructor is certified to teach Tech diving but chooses not to because too many people want to get into Tech diving as an ego thing, or have no business getting the cert because they can barely pass a OW class. THis is the case where we live. This proably is not the case everywhere. He even said that I would proably not want to get into that for a while because I have a Irish temper to go with my red hair, and green eyes and have very little tolerance for those that pick on others smaller than them. I am also a short person. I believe everyone, I don't care who they are, deserves to be treated with respect, and I do my best to do that. I didn't really mean for it to come off as rude. I just require proof with statements. If a person has made a statement about something that the research does not support, I want them to support it. If you can't tell me why something is bad, it is just your own personal opinion, then why does my oen personal opinion not have the same weight? You know, the old saying Put up or shut up? thats what I was getting at. Info give me Info, not radical statements that you can't back up. Sorry if I came off rude
Thank you for your comments

 

[pt40fathoms]

What do you mean by high performance?
So before doing any cave and tech diving I would need new equipment , which I had planned on getting anyway. I guess my question here is,
If I have such a bad regualtor
(and it was rated so highly by all the dive magazines, and the people I have talked to that think the sherwood is an excellent reg,)
then should I call Sherwood and tell them I was told by tech divers and someone (one person) who works on their regs that I want my money back because my reg is a low performance reg and I had wanted one that was high performance?
WEll I really like my reg and I think it works good and I have never gotten a headache but once when I was diving. I got the headache that one time because I get migraines and when the weather is going to get really bad I can feel it.

Thank you for your advice, so in your opinion, what should I get when I decide to get into cave diving? You and I are about the same size so what is your suggestion?

Sherwood make fine "recreational" regulators. For most dives to recreational depths and conditions, you will find them to be quite reliable and safe to use.

However, they are not a high performance regulator, and are not suited to the higher demands on air flow and cold temperatures one finds during a dive beyond recreational limits.

High performance, simply put, is the ability to deliver air on demand to beyond the requirements normally accepted as a maximum predicted limit during normal diving operations. A high performance regulator will be considerably less likely to experience freezing of the first stage during high demand periods. This freezing may cause a free flowing second stages or, depending on the design, a cessation of air flow. They will also be capable of delivering air during maximum demand periods without significantly lowering the intermediate pressure.

Sherwood regulators are good regulators, just not high performance ones.

Does this answer your question?

 

[beachdivequeenbelam]

Sherwood make fine "recreational" regulators. For most dives to recreational depths and conditions, you will find them to be quite reliable and safe to use.

However, they are not a high performance regulator, and are not suited to the higher demands on air flow and cold temperatures one finds during a dive beyond recreational limits.

High performance, simply put, is the ability to deliver air on demand to beyond the requirements normally accepted as a maximum predicted limit during normal diving operations. A high performance regulator will be considerably less likely to experience freezing of the first stage during high demand periods. This freezing may cause a free flowing second stages or, depending on the design, a cessation of air flow. They will also be capable of delivering air during maximum demand periods without significantly lowering the intermediate pressure.

Sherwood regulators are good regulators, just not high performance ones.

Does this answer your question?

Yes and No.
So what is a good regualtor for that kind of diving then?
What about the Sherwood specifically if you know makes it unable to perform? Is there any testing or data I can look at that supports what you said above?

 

[CBulla]

I've had the Apex ATX series recommended to me if I wanted to pursue that sort of diving. I'm not now, but thats what I was looking at for a while. I also have a draw towards the Posideon and Mares regs. All of the first stages are for DIN.