Badly fitting BCD/New diver figuring out what questions to ask

[jowe]

You are just taking lessons. You have dozens if not hundreds of mistakes, challenges, or problems to experience underwater, so don’t put much weight on one bad day in the pool. Plus it sounds like you learned another valuable lesson: problems snowball and the effect is cumulative and if you don’t get the issues resolved things snowball into something more challenging than you might expect.

That is an excellent point, thank you. I am over-thinking it and maybe obsessing about it being a place where mistakes. etc., could easily be fatal. It's a legit worry and worth remembering that, but not letting it get out of perspective to the degree I scare myself out of something I really, really want to do.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

That is an excellent point, thank you. I am over-thinking it and maybe obsessing about it being a place where mistakes. etc., could easily be fatal. It's a legit worry and worth remembering that, but not letting it get out of perspective to the degree I scare myself out of something I really, really want to do.

Just relax and have fun, you’ll do great

 

[eelpout]

Based on my experience in Teaching and retail for 40 years in the diving industry, the backplate /wing system would be the best investment of time and money for a BCD. The main reason why very few dive stores teach with them is because of the time it takes to get fitted and properly use it in the water. It takes a lot more time than just putting on and pulling /tugging on straps to have a BP/wing to fit you. Then there is all this extra strapping that would have to be trimmed and leave you with the need to have a larger amount of rental inventory. Teaching with it would take more time. I would like to compare it to the learning curve of learning how to drive a stick shift vs. an automatic transmission on a car. I was introduced to the system by cave divers that were teaching a "Technical Diving course" that I was attending. So I went from using it on twin tanks first then used it on a single tank because of the comfort and ease of acquiring the "proper trim" with the system with a single tank. In the later years of teaching, I wasn't teaching the beginner courses anymore and personal friends that would ask me to teach them were trained on a BP/wing. I have a daughter that started on a BP/wing (DSS Kydex plate with 17# wing) at the age of 10. So my wife (who was also a dive professional) got to see and experiment on teaching with the BP/wing. Important to know - get somebody to teach you how to use and dive with one and keep it super simple (KISS).

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Based on my experience in Teaching and retail for 40 years in the diving industry, the backplate /wing system would be the best investment of time and money for a BCD. The main reason why very few dive stores teach with them is because of the time it takes to get fitted and properly use it in the water. It takes a lot more time than just putting on and pulling /tugging on straps to have a BP/wing to fit you. Then there is all this extra strapping that would have to be trimmed and leave you with the need to have a larger amount of rental inventory. Teaching with it would take more time. I would like to compare it to the learning curve of learning how to drive a stick shift vs. an automatic transmission on a car. I was introduced to the system by cave divers that were teaching a "Technical Diving course" that I was attending. So I went from using it on twin tanks first then used it on a single tank because of the comfort and ease of acquiring the "proper trim" with the system with a single tank. In the later years of teaching, I wasn't teaching the beginner courses anymore and personal friends that would ask me to teach them were trained on a BP/wing. I have a daughter that started on a BP/wing (DSS Kydex plate with 17# wing) at the age of 10. So my wife (who was also a dive professional) got to see and experiment on teaching with the BP/wing. Important to know - get somebody to teach you how to use and dive with one and keep it super simple (KISS).

It’s possible to set up BP/W with adjustable straps for rental/teaching. I know it’s not “purist” but it works and it’s still the same difference as a Hog rig, only that it’s adjustable.
The reason most LDS’s don’t want them in the shop is because most don’t understand them, they think they are “tech diving crap”. They also secretly know in the back of their minds that they will not get to sell another BC later. Once people get a BP/W they are pretty much set for life except for maintenance and a few components once in a great while. Dive shops also don’t get the kind of markup like on jackets. The BP/W started on the internet and it’s still primary the property of the internet. Dive shops missed the opportunity to fully embrace BP/W and now it’s kind if too late.
That’s what happens when you bury your head in the sand and pretend it will just go away someday.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Based on my experience in Teaching and retail for 40 years in the diving industry, the backplate /wing system would be the best investment of time and money for a BCD. The main reason why very few dive stores teach with them is because of the time it takes to get fitted and properly use it in the water. It takes a lot more time than just putting on and pulling /tugging on straps to have a BP/wing to fit you. Then there is all this extra strapping that would have to be trimmed and leave you with the need to have a larger amount of rental inventory. Teaching with it would take more time. I would like to compare it to the learning curve of learning how to drive a stick shift vs. an automatic transmission on a car. I was introduced to the system by cave divers that were teaching a "Technical Diving course" that I was attending. So I went from using it on twin tanks first then used it on a single tank because of the comfort and ease of acquiring the "proper trim" with the system with a single tank. In the later years of teaching, I wasn't teaching the beginner courses anymore and personal friends that would ask me to teach them were trained on a BP/wing. I have a daughter that started on a BP/wing (DSS Kydex plate with 17# wing) at the age of 10. So my wife (who was also a dive professional) got to see and experiment on teaching with the BP/wing. Important to know - get somebody to teach you how to use and dive with one and keep it super simple (KISS).

You can also tuck the extra webbing on the waist belt and use slices of inner tube to hold it in place. An experienced person can then adjust the rig from small to XL in less than 5 minutes. You don't need to cut it.
One BPW can replace 4-5 BCs in a rental fleet as far as sizing goes. An instructor that takes no more than 4 students at a time only needs 5 BPW set ups. Two should have extra long webbing for those larger students. One is a spare just in case a wing gets punctured. If one teaches kids as well, get two small plates - hard or soft, and put less webbing on them.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You can also tuck the extra webbing on the waist belt and use slices of inner tube to hold it in place. An experienced person can then adjust the rig from small to XL in less than 5 minutes. You don't need to cut it.
One BPW can replace 4-5 BCs in a rental fleet as far as sizing goes. An instructor that takes no more than 4 students at a time only needs 5 BPW set ups. Two should have extra long webbing for those larger students. One is a spare just in case a wing gets punctured. If one teaches kids as well, get two small plates - hard or soft, and put less webbing on them.

BP/W’s also don’t get outdated every few years and need to be replaced so that the rental fleet looks up to date. They always want to rent what’s available to buy.
Plates never change nor does webbing or D-rings. The only thing that might change is the wing, but not really even that. BP/W makes the most sense for rental fleets. Again, dive shops are way behind the times and not many people working at them are BP/W savvy. In any other sporting industry retailers are all over anything new to keep their competitive advantage. Not with dive shops. It’s kind if sad.

 

[jowe]

Let's talk BPW - you know you want to . Given my entire recent and small BCD exposure is with a jacket (kind assessment: room for improvement) I'd like to get my own BCD and reg ASAP to gain experience with a consistent setup, that I'd use in Monterey Bay and travel with.

I'm told there's a learning curve with BPW. Well, there is with everything for me now, I'm new. But what is meant by that? Is it something a brand new diver should start out with or should I go with an intermediate step like a ScubaPro Hydros Pro and accept that I'll be changing later?

I'll try and answer my own questions with copious Scubaboard searches and Googling, but am grateful for all thoughts and tips at this point.

 

[lexvil]

Let's talk BPW - you know you want to . Given my entire recent and small BCD exposure is with a jacket (kind assessment: room for improvement) I'd like to get my own BCD and reg ASAP to gain experience with a consistent setup, that I'd use in Monterey Bay and travel with.

I'm told there's a learning curve with BPW. Well, there is with everything for me now, I'm new. But what is meant by that? Is it something a brand new diver should start out with or should I go with an intermediate step like a ScubaPro Hydros Pro and accept that I'll be changing later?

I'll try and answer my own questions with copious Scubaboard searches and Googling, but am grateful for all thoughts and tips at this point.

There isn’t much of a curve since you haven’t formed years of habit. The majority of the difference is handled out of the water, getting it adjusted so it does what you need it to in the water, there are several types of harness available from super simple to types that pretty much fit and feel just like a b/c.

the hydros is a very good b/c without a lot of floaty padding, it could serve you well for years, a bp/w can also do that.

 

[James79]

Let's talk BPW - you know you want to . Given my entire recent and small BCD exposure is with a jacket (kind assessment: room for improvement) I'd like to get my own BCD and reg ASAP to gain experience with a consistent setup, that I'd use in Monterey Bay and travel with.

I'm told there's a learning curve with BPW. Well, there is with everything for me now, I'm new. But what is meant by that? Is it something a brand new diver should start out with or should I go with an intermediate step like a ScubaPro Hydros Pro and accept that I'll be changing later?

I'll try and answer my own questions with copious Scubaboard searches and Googling, but am grateful for all thoughts and tips at this point.

I put both of my kids in BPW right out of OW course, and I made the first BPW I used from scratch and figured out how to rig it with the help of a couple videos and trial and error. It really isn't that big of a deal. There is a pretty good video that gets posted pretty regularly on setting up the harness, and the rest is just making adjustments until you are happy with where everything sits.
As to using it, the two things that I've seen take people getting used to both revolve around the back inflate nature of them. One is that with the wing being completely separate from the harness, the harness doesn't tighten as you inflate it (like a jacket will with it's wrap around air cell). Not a bad thing, just different. The other is that with the air cell behind you, if you try to float head and shoulders out of the water it can push you face forward..... easy fix is that you don't need to float that high. I hang out on the surface with my chin touching the water still and it doesn't push me forward. The other part of that is that if you do need to float higher than that, lay back onto it. It requires a bit of active balancing, but isn't bad at all.
Best advice if you buy a BPW is to go to the pool with someone familiar with BPW to get you on the right track for fitting it.
Regarding the Hydros Pro, I've never used one, but have seen them in person. Nice looking rig, but spendy for what you get in my opinion. Only benefit I see over a BPW is that fitment/adjustment may be a bit easier, but as a back inflate BCD, it will have the same characteristics mentioned above at the surface. Like I said, not problematic, just different.
In your position I would recommend getting a used BPW or something like the DGX single tank BPW package.... inexpensive as dive gear goes, and if you decide BPW isn't for you after you try it you can recoup most of the cost reselling.
One thing I didn't see (may have missed it if it was mentioned up thread) is that when you do get something, do a proper buoyancy AND trim check. It isn't just about how much lead, it is also where you put the lead. In a perfect world your center of mass will end up matched with your center of buoyancy, letting you just hang in any position in the water. In the real world we just try to get pretty close.
I recommend using this document, by @rsingler with help from others:
Optimal Buoyancy Computer
I adjusted my copy to match actual weight used at the springs, and then just changed the conditions to salt.... presto, good data! Once you get your personal buoyancy dialed in it also makes a great starting place for estimates after a gear change.

Make sure your weight checks are with minimum air in your tank (300-500 psi), so you don't find yourself too light at the end of the dive. Or do the check with a full tank, and add lead for the weight of air in the tank.

Regards placement, my usual dive buddy and I validated/adjusted placement when we did our weight checks.... 500 psi tank, 15 feet, can I hover with an empty wing? check. Stop all movement and see what happens... went vertical - shift weight higher, go head down - shift weight lower, turn turtle - move weight to front of body, trouble rolling over - move weight to cam-band or plate.

Respectfully,

James

 

[jowe]

Thank you Lexvil and James, that's really, really helpful. I was getting a bit of "that's for seasoned tech divers" from a couple of people so it helps to know I'm not nuts to consider BPW, also if I don't go that route the Hydros Pro is a decent if expensive choice (I'm definitely gazing into the dive money pit and figuring out where best to spend).

That's a lot of good stuff there, James. I so appreciate your time, practical pointers and experience.