Bad Dive Master

[c555]

No one held a discussion about the dive afterwards because we were more concerned about the woman who blacked out at 100 ft.

 

[c555]

I forgot to tell you that I am going to be gone this weekend so I won't be able to watch this. If possible ill find internet but I can check up on this again on sunday night. Thanks everyone

 

[pilot fish]

I forgot to tell you that I am going to be gone this weekend so I won't be able to watch this. If possible ill find internet but I can check up on this again on sunday night. Thanks everyone

I think I speak for a lot of divers on this Board -as a Junior diver [a lot of senior divers might not have had your composure] please do not go in the water without qualified people. Stay close to your dad and or a good DM. Please be careful.

You'll surpass us all soon

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

To start with, this was not a shop dive. It was just a charter put on by tealwater.I don't know why the dive masters dove, but they did. I don't believe that the DM that was with us was trained, she was just a diver who thought she could guide us.

But in your initial post you did say that she was a divemaster. Based on your additional comments, I suspect you are correct that she was not ...

You seemed confused about what went on that day, so Ill retell you.

Yes I was confused … that’s why I asked for more information. Now that you’ve provided it, we can discuss this dive more intelligently. My intent isn’t to criticize, but to give you some things to think about for future dives. At some point, you need to consider what YOU can do to keep yourself and your dive buddies from having experiences like this one. Don’t rely on a “divemaster” or anyone else to protect you from harm … the whole reason for going through a class is to learn how to do this for yourself.

When we got to the dive site, wich was fox island with a planned max deapth of 60 ft, the captian said he had placed a bouy there to mark it, but it was gone.

At which point, if he didn’t have a bottom-sounder to locate the wall he should have chosen an alternative dive site … as you discovered, there’s nothing else out there except a sloping sand bottom, seapens and the occasional pink tritonia nudibranch. Poor decision on the captain’s part.

BTW - I’m assuming you were on the west wall … the east wall would’ve had heavy current that day, even at slack.

He went to the place where he thought it would be and cut the engines to allow us the jump in.

Should’ve anchored ... as you discovered, the bottom drops off rather suddenly to depths that inexperienced divers shouldn’t be going to.

She took her compass bearing and began swimming very fast and kicking up a lot of silt. We followed her for about 10 minutes without finding the dive site. During this time, she had turned on her light but then just dropped it to hang on the lanyard for the rest of the dive. This is how it drug through everything. So after 10 min, she stopped to ask us if we were OK, we said yes so she took a new compass bearing and began swimming again. Her light was still dragging. 10 minutes after that, at about 20 minutes total bottom time, she stopped again asking if we were OK. We replied yes

Did you at any time during all of this consider that you were not OK? If she was asking, and you were responding “yes” she had no reason to believe she was doing anything wrong … other than not finding the wall. Once again, you need to take some responsibility for your dive … if you are uncomfortable and someone asks you if you are OK … don’t tell them that you are.

We followed her for 10 more minutes until she gave us the up sign, even though we still had 1/2 a tank left.

At this point, you are not diving the plan … and should have considered ascending long ago regardless of how much air you had left. When you did your Open Water class, did they not tell you to “plan your dive and dive your plan”?

We started to ascend but she just bolted straight up. When we got to the safety stop, she wasn't there but we leveled off anyway. Then the DM just landed on top of me. She pulled me down some, but we got back to 15 ft. Then we just descided to go up because we hadn't been down very long, and again she swam up very fast. This time her light got caught on my primary regulators hose and began dragging me up. At about 7 ft, she ripped my regulator out, so I reached for my octo but I realized we were only a few feet down so I just swam the rest of the way up.

Did you remember to continue exhaling? Even from 7 feet you can easily damage your lungs if you hold your breath.

Our group of 3 reached the surface safely and we signaled the dive boat to come over. As it got closer, I saw one person sitting on the side breathing oxygen and everyone else was on board, even though it had only been a 1/2 hour.

See above … once you’ve blown the dive plan, you should end the dive, regardless of how long you’ve been in the water or how much air you have left. It’s something that should have been covered in your Open Water class.

When we were on board and out of our gear, I learned what happened. The group with my aunt and uncle had started their descent, but my aunt didn't control it. She began sinking extremely fast and finally hit the bottom at over 100 ft. Her buddy and the Dm reached her and were able to safely bring her to the surface. They were brought on and my uncle popped a blood vessel in his left eye so that his eye was not just pink and bloodshot but pure blood red.

The other group of divers, my dad and brother w/ their Dm had a similar problem. My brother is new and he also had an uncontrolled descent. They hit the bottom at 90 ft and then immediatly ascended to the surface. On this dive, no-one was injured.

From this description I would have to say that the divers in your group are so severely undertrained that they have no business doing boat dives in Puget Sound. They need to go back to the pool and learn some fundamental buoyancy skills. The divemaster is not responsible for uncontrolled descents and ascents … the individual divers are. That means if you don’t have the basic skills to make safe ascents and descents, you should not be diving in conditions that require them. Stick to shallow shore dives until you acquire some skills … and perhaps consider finding an instructor who will not hand you a C-card until you have them

The way the captian could have prevended this was drop us in the correct spot. When he cut the engines we were in about 30 ft of water but between then and the time we entered the water we drifted deeper. The captian could have dropped us in 30 ft not 100+ ft to stop the uncontrolled descents.

From your description, the captain did make some poor decisions … as did the woman who pretended to be your divemaster. However, as a certified diver you are responsible for your own safety, and your own decisions to keep yourself safe.

On the second dive at z's reef, my dad and I were the only people who did the second dive and I was with a different dive master and had a very good time.

I’m glad to hear you had a good time … however, given what you described above I question the captain’s judgment in even allowing a second dive.

From your description, you all were very lucky not to have had a serious injury or accident during these dives. Frankly, I would advise you to get more experience doing shallow shore dives … or even pool practice … before attempting another boat dive. From what you describe, the divemaster isn’t the only one in your group who had inadequate skills for the dives you were attempting to do.

At a minimum, consider calling the dive sooner next time something like this happens … your safety is worth way more than the price of a charter. And as you (hopefully) just learned, you cannot rely on someone else to keep you safe.

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pilot fish]

In reading this post I was getting the feeling it was a tad harsh on a young, junior diver but towards the end I was thinking, this is what this young diver needs to hear and it will help make him a safer diver. One of the things that is so true, DO NOT TELL SOMEONE YOU ARE DIVING WITH YOU ARE OK IF YOU ARE NOT.

Bob is right, you all might need a bit more training before you attempt another boat dive. Also, do not dive with that Capt or crew again.

But in your initial post you did say that she was a divemaster. Based on your additional comments, I suspect you are correct that she was not ...


Yes I was confused … that’s why I asked for more information. Now that you’ve provided it, we can discuss this dive more intelligently. My intent isn’t to criticize, but to give you some things to think about for future dives. At some point, you need to consider what YOU can do to keep yourself and your dive buddies from having experiences like this one. Don’t rely on a “divemaster” or anyone else to protect you from harm … the whole reason for going through a class is to learn how to do this for yourself.


At which point, if he didn’t have a bottom-sounder to locate the wall he should have chosen an alternative dive site … as you discovered, there’s nothing else out there except a sloping sand bottom, seapens and the occasional pink tritonia nudibranch. Poor decision on the captain’s part.

BTW - I’m assuming you were on the west wall … the east wall would’ve had heavy current that day, even at slack.


Should’ve anchored ... as you discovered, the bottom drops off rather suddenly to depths that inexperienced divers shouldn’t be going to.


Did you at any time during all of this consider that you were not OK? If she was asking, and you were responding “yes” she had no reason to believe she was doing anything wrong … other than not finding the wall. Once again, you need to take some responsibility for your dive … if you are uncomfortable and someone asks you if you are OK … don’t tell them that you are.


At this point, you are not diving the plan … and should have considered ascending long ago regardless of how much air you had left. When you did your Open Water class, did they not tell you to “plan your dive and dive your plan”?


Did you remember to continue exhaling? Even from 7 feet you can easily damage your lungs if you hold your breath.


See above … once you’ve blown the dive plan, you should end the dive, regardless of how long you’ve been in the water or how much air you have left. It’s something that should have been covered in your Open Water class.


From this description I would have to say that the divers in your group are so severely undertrained that they have no business doing boat dives in Puget Sound. They need to go back to the pool and learn some fundamental buoyancy skills. The divemaster is not responsible for uncontrolled descents and ascents … the individual divers are. That means if you don’t have the basic skills to make safe ascents and descents, you should not be diving in conditions that require them. Stick to shallow shore dives until you acquire some skills … and perhaps consider finding an instructor who will not hand you a C-card until you have them


From your description, the captain did make some poor decisions … as did the woman who pretended to be your divemaster. However, as a certified diver you are responsible for your own safety, and your own decisions to keep yourself safe.


I’m glad to hear you had a good time … however, given what you described above I question the captain’s judgment in even allowing a second dive.

From your description, you all were very lucky not to have had a serious injury or accident during these dives. Frankly, I would advise you to get more experience doing shallow shore dives … or even pool practice … before attempting another boat dive. From what you describe, the divemaster isn’t the only one in your group who had inadequate skills for the dives you were attempting to do.

At a minimum, consider calling the dive sooner next time something like this happens … your safety is worth way more than the price of a charter. And as you (hopefully) just learned, you cannot rely on someone else to keep you safe.

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[BarryNL]

But in your initial post you did say that she was a divemaster. Based on your additional comments, I suspect you are correct that she was not ...

I wonder how common this is - non-qualified staff acting as divemasters. I certainly came across this with one company in Greece. I was chatting to the "divemaster" who'd been leading the dive afterwards and it came up that he actually only had AOW and was hoping to do his Rescue course soon... :shakehead

I found another operator for my next dive.

 

[c555]

During the dive I felt comfortable because the only thing she had done wrong so far was drag her light, and my cousin was still there. In the last 7 ft I did remember to exhale, so I was OK.

 

[isurus]

I wonder how often divers assume someone is a dm because they do something we might perceive as "dm-like". Doing a group dive in asia with some inexperienced divers, the dm suggested I ride off the back of the group with the ops trainee dm so I could take pics out of the way and we could duck off if they were a group of roto-tillers. As it happened they were all ok and during the dive I pointed out a nice whipray and grouper to them and an octo that had come out of its clip and needed refastening. At the end of the dive they thanked me and asked me how long I'd been dm-ing.

If a local op suggests for example someone lead a dive cos they know the site or something like that don't just assume they're a dm with dm training they may just be a local who knows the site better than you.

Obviously Jeff's points about reliance on a dm apply in any event but just thought this a point worth making.

 

[jennasnyder1980]

Barry,

Was the dive operator on Santorini Island in Greece??? I was there last summer and dove with a dive shop.
The person signed my book and checked off instructor with no instructor number. It was a horrible dive! After doing that dive, I decided NOT to go ahead with the second dive of the day and just be lucky that I made it. I also realized that I could have changed the outcome of some of the issues I had as well by posting on Scubaboard like the OP for this post did and get real feedback as to what I could have done differently and what I should expect to see in a dive operator.

Jen

 

[tangfish]

I just finished my DM certification at around 200 dives over the course of 4 years or so. I had a classmate who is a nice guy, but had about 35 dives at the start of the course and still needs to do a number more to get to 60 to get signed off. He is not terribly good w/ his consumption and buoyancy. These are two things I expect other DMs to have competence, even excellence in. He set out with the goal of going from not being certified to Divemaster in 6 months, which is not the right way to approach things if you ask me. I tend to think that folks should get certifications while doing plenty of diving between each of them. This way, what you learn from the instructor is better put into context, and perhaps enhances real-life experiences you've had. I know when I'm ready to do my next cert, because I feel like I've learned a lot from diving since my previous one and the next step in becoming a better diver is through formal training. If there is still a ton left to learn from just general everyday diving, then I know I should be in the water some more before signing up for the next class. Does this make sense?

I don't think the # of dives a person has is the only thing that should be taken into consideration when taken into training as a DM (or even other certifications beyond this one).

Honestly, I don't think you become that much better of a diver from doing OW classes. You become a better teacher, but you're not diving in such a way as to better improve your skills as a diver, rather you're sitting on the bottom doing skill exercises, helping others, explaining and clarifying things for people. All of this is important, but when someone goes from 35 - 60 dives, and many of those are spent doing things that don't improve buoyancy and general comfort in the water (which leads to better conservation of energy and air), I'm thinking that they're missing out on a lot. There is no substitute for time spent in the water, time spent as a diver (researching and learning about diving through other avenues such as SB) and time spent taking things at a reasonable pace.

A diver's ability, both physical and mental, have more importance to me than the number of dives in their log book. What do you guys think about the idea of having someone demonstrate a minimum level of proficiency as a diver PRIOR to being accepted into DM training? I'm sure this would hurt the bottom line for PADI and maybe even instructors and dive operations, but it would probably result in better dive professionals out there with people's safety in their hands.