Bad Air!!!

[WarmWaterDiver]

It would be odd to find no residue of aromatic hydrocarbons in the user's tanks in question, if there were aromatic hydrocarbons introduced into the tanks by the fill station apparatus.

The volatility of aromatic hydrocarbons are lower than their same carbon number non-aromatic isomers. Even at just a few psi pressure, something like toluene would have to be heated really, really hot to exist only as a vapor, and then the tank would have to be depressured to ambient pressure while it was hot to evacuate the tank from any potential liquid residue on the inner tank walls.

Lubricating oils have really low volatility - this is why they stand up to environments like an internal combustion engine's combustion chamber. Also, lubricating oils form thin tenacious films on surfaces that are hard to remove (which is why they make such good lubricants). If they were transferred into the tanks by the fill station equipment, they should be present on the insides of the tanks and in the regulator first stage internals.

I absolutely agree the probability of having 6 individual scuba tanks go 'bad' at the same time with no external agent at work is astronomically low. But lack of any hydrocarbon residues of the types under discussion here probably points to something with a relative volatility about on par with air.

edit - we do always ask lots of questions regarding fill station apparatus before we take a trip, and when renting tanks. it perplexes some dive operators, but when I explain our everyday work includes the potential need for SCBA and we're more familiar with industrial gas standards which are typically more stringent, everything's copacetic. Case in point, we're traveling to Curacao in June, and the dive shops have sent me scanned images of their most recent compressor quality control test certificates by e-mail with no hassles, just because I asked.

 

[Divingdispatcher]

I'm just glad to hear that everyone is ok. That could have gone a lot worse. Take care and be safe.

 

[DandyDon]

edit - we do always ask lots of questions regarding fill station apparatus before we take a trip, and when renting tanks. it perplexes some dive operators, but when I explain our everyday work includes the potential need for SCBA and we're more familiar with industrial gas standards which are typically more stringent, everything's copacetic. Case in point, we're traveling to Curacao in June, and the dive shops have sent me scanned images of their most recent compressor quality control test certificates by e-mail with no hassles, just because I asked.

Good that you get the cooperation. When I've asked for such, I've often been given a song & dance...

"Not since Hurricane Wilma, but such is not so easy to do in Cozumel." What? Air fright doesn't operate there now?
"We've never had a problem." I've never had a house fire, but I keep smoke detectors and extinguishers in several rooms.
And other crap that tells me that they don't care.​

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

Good that you get the cooperation. When I've asked for such, I've often been given a song & dance...

"Not since Hurricane Wilma, but such is not so easy to do in Cozumel." What? Air fright doesn't operate there now?
"We've never had a problem." I've never had a house fire, but I keep smoke detectors and extinguishers in several rooms.
And other crap that tells me that they don't care.
​

Some dive ops get offended that the question is even raised - but usually calm down once I explain the difference between O2 clean and O2 compatible vs. everyday use on Grade E air. Any op that doesn't get over it doesn't get our business. If the first stage is kept O2 clean between service intervals, it doesn't need to go through the whole O2 cleaning again - the tech just needs to ensure they don't contaminate it wheile servicing it. Compressor lubricating oils are the most tenacious substances to get in the first stage, but it's important to look at the other parameters as well (like CO) on the QC test results certificate.

In our experience, dive ops that have any tech diving offerings are considerably less difficult to deal with in this regard, and will often let us tour their fill and blending (or membrane) facilities firsthand with them before we use their services, as well as produce their last QC test results. It's nice to see this has evolved to the point of receiving the QC test results electronically before we ever leave the house, by simple request, with no fuss! And, if we get good service in terms of fill pressure and as-filled mix vs. target mix, we always tip the gas blender seperately where & when this is possible.

"We've never had a problem yet" doesn't stand up well in the industrial world either - the BP Texas City incident a few years back is the most recent widley publiized example of such a mindset. Arguements that this is too difficult to perform in places like Cozumel don't standd up to my experience - the QC certificates i received from the two dive ops we'll be using in Curacao show the samples were tested at the same lab in Austin, TX as the domestic Fill Express operation.

Fill Express -- Quality of Breathing Gases

http://www.fillexpress.com/library/testresults.pdf

In fact, the dive ops we'll be using in Curacao had even better results - their CO2 test data showed < 500 ppm CO2, meeting even ANDI standards.

It can't be any more difficult to ship a sample from Cozumel to Austin as to ship a sample from Curacao to Austin. It's just a matter of honest concern for making sure the dive op is taking good care of their customers and their staff in this regard.

 

[DandyDon]

The ones with nothing to hide have no reason to be offended, should be proud to give a tour of their clean regs with well places intake pipe, CO scrubber, inline CO monitor with auto cut-off, and required quarterly tests, but I know - many have little to be proud of. Well, it's only a matter of life or death, and most foreign locations can get the latter written off as a drowning without tests easily enough.

Yet, so very few traveling divers both to ask, so it's easier to dismiss me as the oddball trouble maker. Great way to start a visit.

 

[Avonthediver]

In saying "our regs are fine and have been looked at as well as all the tanks." I was saying that they were overhauld and that the tanks were O2 cleaned.
their looked to ta me like oil in the tanks as well as in the reg's, the air was very old tire smelling.
sorry for the over site!

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

Ahhh - thanks for the clarification.

Yep, that stuff didn't get into the tanks and first stages by osmosis - some source pressuring up the tanks must have carried it in there. True for all 6 affected tanks. Sounds like y'all inhaled some lubricating oils - noted for their tenacious film formation on substances they come in contact with - my guess is your airway, alveoli, etc. are no different in this respect but I'll defer to a medical professional like TS&M on that point.

Did you happen to keep a sample of the liquid removed from your tanks for analysis? If it could be analyzed and matched to the last fill operation somehow (like a sample of their compressor oil), then you have more of a case. But I'll bet the best course of action is to just avoid that fill operation going forward - lots of hassle involved unless maybe one of your group that's affected is an attorney with some spare time.

I've been absent for a while here, but I'm getting back into the forums here again. Here's some older threads on air fill quality. The one about a bunch of construction next door to a fill station using heavy equipment is a really good example of something that could occur between routine sample submission for analysis.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ent-you-sure-your-facility-has-clean-air.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-divers-killed-carbon-monoxide-poisoning.html

 

[Avonthediver]

na I dont want anything out of the so called LDS in question, I would just like him to check his air fill station an at least stop this from going on again. He had been getting his shop back up after the winter and was looking to his class' he had coming up!
sad thing is he helped train my brother many years ago. its sad ta think he has gotten this sloppy!

 

[DandyDon]

In saying "our regs are fine and have been looked at as well as all the tanks." I was saying that they were overhauld and that the tanks were O2 cleaned.
their looked to ta me like oil in the tanks as well as in the reg's, the air was very old tire smelling.
sorry for the over site!

Ah Ha! Not just bad air but some real greasy stuff. Damn!

Ahhh - thanks for the clarification.

Yep, that stuff didn't get into the tanks and first stages by osmosis - some source pressuring up the tanks must have carried it in there. True for all 6 affected tanks. Sounds like y'all inhaled some lubricating oils - noted for their tenacious film formation on substances they come in contact with - my guess is your airway, alveoli, etc. are no different in this respect but I'll defer to a medical professional like TS&M on that point.

Did you happen to keep a sample of the liquid removed from your tanks for analysis? If it could be analyzed and matched to the last fill operation somehow (like a sample of their compressor oil), then you have more of a case. But I'll bet the best course of action is to just avoid that fill operation going forward - lots of hassle involved unless maybe one of your group that's affected is an attorney with some spare time.

I've been absent for a while here, but I'm getting back into the forums here again. Here's some older threads on air fill quality. The one about a bunch of construction next door to a fill station using heavy equipment is a really good example of something that could occur between routine sample submission for analysis.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ent-you-sure-your-facility-has-clean-air.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-divers-killed-carbon-monoxide-poisoning.html

Interesting old threads, thanks. Scubatoys no longer carries that CO detetor; he had it at a liquidation price. I even talked with the manufacturer; she said he's cost to make them today would be around $100-150. This one Aeromedix.com - CO Experts Model 2004 Low Level Carbon Monoxide Monitor/Detector has a lot of appeal, if it wasn't so bulky. The tiny one I carry has some drawbacks, but it's a lot more feasible to carry and use.

The thread about the 5-star facility echos so many others...

Trusting your fill station is dangerous; and

Padi does very, very little about enforcing their requirements.​

na I dont want anything out of the so called LDS in question, I would just like him to check his air fill station an at least stop this from going on again. He had been getting his shop back up after the winter and was looking to his class' he had coming up!
sad thing is he helped train my brother many years ago. its sad ta think he has gotten this sloppy!

Yeah, that's a tough one. He nearly killed you four and refuses to admit responsibility, but if you take action then you'll look like the bad guy - and maybe he won't kill anyone now? I'm not going into what I think I'd do; if you address and envelope to Don Quixote with my zip code, the post office puts it into my box without questions. :silly:

 

[padiscubapro]

Ah Ha! Not just bad air but some real greasy stuff. Damn!

Interesting old threads, thanks. Scubatoys no longer carries that CO detetor; he had it at a liquidation price. I even talked with the manufacturer; she said he's cost to make them today would be around $100-150. This one Aeromedix.com - CO Experts Model 2004 Low Level Carbon Monoxide Monitor/Detector has a lot of appeal, if it wasn't so bulky. The tiny one I carry has some drawbacks, but it's a lot more feasible to carry and use.

The thread about the 5-star facility echos so many others...

Trusting your fill station is dangerous; and

Padi does very, very little about enforcing their requirements.
​

Yeah, that's a tough one. He nearly killed you four and refuses to admit responsibility, but if you take action then you'll look like the bad guy - and maybe he won't kill anyone now? I'm not going into what I think I'd do; if you address and envelope to Don Quixote with my zip code, the post office puts it into my box without questions. :silly:

Oxycheq sells a portable co meter (looks the same as theor o2 meters).. It retails for $400.. No exactly cheap, but still affordable...