Backplate/wing: set-up questions concerning buckle and weights.

[jlcnuke]

I agree 'blow (tons of ballast) and go (shooting to the surface)' is very risky.
I did/do not understand that 'ditchable weight' meant that.
Yes, distinguishing:
A) ditch a ton and shoot up, ('blow and go")
B) drop a little to help start you up, and
C) drop some on the surface
Is very important.


I accept there is a difference.
It was not at all clear that your use of "ditchable lead" meant A, and not B or C. There had been one mention of a rescuer going for your weight belt tail, and one mention that 'dropping ballast is like plan D', to get up, but without specifying how much ballast so it could be A or B. Ok, they did start with swim, inflate, or drop. But that was one mention three posts before yours and you responded to the original post. I can see how this started in confusion on terms, but it really was not clear that you felt or feel that 'ditchable weight' only has the meaning 'blow (a ton) and go'.


Agree it is risky. (though less so than eventually breathing water)

This. Ditchable weight, when potentially needed to make swimming up possible in the event of a BC failure when wearing a large amount of weight, is responsible and potentially life-saving imo (whether that weight is there because they're over-weighted to begin with, or because they're compensating for lots of neoprene etc doesn't really matter imo). Ditching all your weight at the bottom (which is not how any of my classes were taught) when wearing a large amount of weight would be irresponsible and dangerous (but if that was the only way to get to the surface because you'd already screwed up then it's still a better option than drowning).

 

[jlcnuke]

I'm not going to condone negligent instruction as done by most of the agencies. I will not teach to those standards, nor will I censor what I'm typing to so called "beginner divers" that have poor instruction. Instead, I will continue to offer what I believe to be valuable information for those that care to read it. If you are going to look at one portion of a statement and ignore the rest of it, then there is no point in a discussion because that one point is not the entire message. The entire message is blow and go as taught by the industry is stupid, "ditchable weight" as they define it is blow and go. It is not let off a small portion of lead to just allow you to kick up to the surface before your suit starts assisting, it is not ditching lead at the surface in an emergency to allow you to stay afloat. Differentiation between those two scenarios is very important and it is NOT what the industry teaches. If you can't accept that there is a difference, fine, but when I wrote the first post, the concept of "ditchable lead" was referring to what the industry refers to as "ditchable" as in, "blow and go". That is not compatible with any sort of balanced rig concept because it is incredibly dangerous.

Had your initial post said anything resembling this, there would have been no discussion. But this is a far cry from "ditchable weight is incompatible with a balanced rig"... hence way too much discussion. You just neglected to post "the entire message" in an organized manner until now.

 

[The Chairman]

The entire message is blow and go as taught by the industry is stupid,

That's a descent strategy that refers to equalizing before you go down. It's one I happen to fully support.

I'm not going to condone negligent instruction as done by most of the agencies.

Instructors instruct... agencies just give us instructors a framework to work within.

A BC failure comes to mind.

Weight, for the most part, is to counter your exposure protection. If you can't easily swim up with a deflated BCD, then you need redundant buoyancy. This could be either a double bladder BC or a dry suit. An SMB or bag will suffice, but I like the idea of wearing my redundant buoyancy. For the most part, if I'm diving double steels or a rig that makes me overly negative, I choose the double bladder option. I hate dry suits.

 

[johndiver999]

That's a descent strategy that refers to equalizing before you go down. It's one I happen to fully support.


Instructors instruct... agencies just give us instructors a framework to work within.


Weight, for the most part, is to counter your exposure protection. If you can't easily swim up with a deflated BCD, then you need redundant buoyancy. This could be either a double bladder BC or a dry suit. An SMB or bag will suffice, but I like the idea of wearing my redundant buoyancy. For the most part, if I'm diving double steels or a rig that makes me overly negative, I choose the double bladder option. I hate dry suits.

Since this is within the "basic" forum, someone might interpret your statement to mean that a lift bag or smb is sufficient for a "basic" diver to handle an emergency on the bottom.

However, I don't know that this skill is taught or practiced during the instruction of open water students.

It would seem that dropping (some) lead would be simpler and quicker and not require extra air to reach the surface as would inflating a lift bag.

I think having the option and skills of using a smb to get off the bottom might be useful, but I'm not sure it is a basic skill, plus getting tangled up in an SMB or lift bag at depth also has the potential to result in a very fast and uncontrolled buoyant ascent.

 

[JohnnyB108]

A tech setup one should have a weight belt. If you have to doff your gear you have no weight on you. To the surface you go. Consider it.
I get it though. I love the minimalist setup. Diving a wing configuration is a different gear setup for dives. It grows as you do. More than just basic OW. so once you grow or advance in skill, you’ll be putting a weight belt on.

 

[Dan G]

you are taking fundamentals, you do not get to make that choice. Your buckle will be set up for right hand release which means the buckle is on the left side webbing.
You do not get to use "ditchable weights" as the concept is incompatible with a balanced rig.
You may not get to use "weight pockets" because they interfere with the other stuff you have to put on your waist belt. You can use other means to get weight onto the rig *weighted STA's, etc*, but if you want "ditchable" weight it's going on a weight belt, at least until you're out of that course.

You'll also learn that 1-2lb trim weights are really only a crutch for poor skills, especially in single tank rigs. In doubles and sidemount they can be necessary because of the added mass of the valves and second regulator set, but in singles, you should be able to trim out with body positioning alone which will be heavily emphasized in your course

I think all those meet the standard but look at the practical aspect as well.

I use bolt on weights and/or camband pockets with single tank because that's where I need the weight .i.e. high up on my torso. With doubles, I need weight closer to my waist so I have bullet weight sitting behind my can light (ditchable by removing the 2nd belt buckle) and a weight pocket on my left hip, behind the left hip D-ring (not ditchable by unhooking the waist strap but it's a velcro pouch so my buddy would be able to remove it if needed). I like having that there to split the weight needed on my waist on both sides.

The issue I see with shoulder strap weight is that if you put it above the chest D-rings, it's going to be rubbing up against your face, longhose, inflator, etc. If you put it below it's going to get in the way of your backup light. If you put it below your backup light, it's going to be close enough to your waist belt that you might just want to add weight there or get a weight belt.

Around here, for weights around the waist, I see weight belts as well as weight pockets on the waist strap. As @MichaelMc mentioned, clutter is the main thing that will determine whether you absolutely can or can't use pockets. Obviously, if you prefer a weight belt do that regardless of clutter.

EDIT: Also, and most importantly, you need to get in the water and try out different options to figure out what works for you. There isn't only one correct way, regardless of whether you're in the GUE system or not. Even with GUE's rigid equipment requirements, there's still room for trying out different stuff and diving what works best for you. You're trying to figure everything out perfectly ahead of time on an Internet forum and that's not how this works.

I am trying to reconcile these two statements. I have a BP/W and STA. Last week I was diving single steel 120s in salt water with a full 3mm wetsuit. I have the STA and wing mounted through the bottom of three holes on the BP. After a few dives of struggling with my trim (120s go pretty low below my waist since I'm 5'7"), I added 2 lbs to my top camband and found a world of difference for my trim. Am I doing something wrong that necessitates those 2 lbs of lead or is this a pretty standard way to trim oneself out when needed?

 

[tbone1004]

@Dan G I'd argue that you are about half a foot too short to be using those tanks which is going to cause you some horrendous problems. In that case the 2lb weight is a concession to having the wrong tank for your body size.

 

[elgoog]

@Dan G That statement was for me in a drysuit - that's why I need the extra weight and where I need it. I should have stated that ...

3mm wetsuit with single HP120 leaves me needing no weight at all anywhere. I'm 5'11" and they seemed fine but, for me, that's a light rig (single tank and wetsuit) and I'm able to get decent trim without mucking around too much with weight placement once I'm neutral.

 

[Pressurehead]

Well you’ve been told what to do, several ways actually. How about look at reasons why,
Firstly, buckle towards your right hip....
1. Secures your canister light, unless you have to dump it, then you can release the light but the buckle is held in place by the crotch strap.
2. Free’s up belt space for left D ring, SPG
3. Not covered by Deco bottle for access.

Now, buckle centered.....
1. Affected by scooter and crotch strap......better to move it to your right side
Now, buckle on the left.....
1. Reasons above......better to move it to your right side.

Reviving an old thread.
I have been doing it wrong for years, or have I ?
My buckles are left hand release.

 

[lowviz]

I have been doing it wrong for years, or have I ?
My buckles are left hand release.

No way. You are dead-nuts on with respect to your backplate. I love the upside-down legacy SP buckle.

FWIW,
Any newly-minted divemaster/instructor is going to instinctively release your W/B with a right-hand pull. Adding to that instinct, you (yourself) yank on belts if in serious crap. Exact same pull for both, one of them is what you want. You just cinched up the other. Life is good...