Back Plate

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RiverRat:
As a new diver it's frustrating to get beat down from LDS sales people, DM's and mostly industry folks (NOT ALL Industry folks, just SOME) just because we really want to get into diving and decide on how WE, as new divers, want to configure our gear. It seems to me that as the local dive shops just want to push expensive BC's they force the folks that work for them to spout off this rhetoric about how you MUST dive a jacket style BC and don't give a rats ass about REALLY teaching us how to get configured properly so we can learn to be good divers whether or not we choose a jacket or BP/W style. Instead they feel that 90% of us just want to spend our hard earned money on expensive gear that may or may not be right for us as we are all probably just once a year vacation divers.

It took some time and quite a few phone calls, but I finally found a dive shop in the Denver area that not only sells Halcyon, but is working towards some sort of DIR training program. I want to say they are going to be GUE certified, but to be honest I don't really recall everything the owner said. My point is with time you can hopefully find a shop in your area that doesn't give you the runaround when you ask about a bp/w setup.

I love my primary LDS. For training, trips, and gadgets, they are my store. But when it comes to the bc, I'll be dealing with the shop that carries them in stock and dives them regularly. Stick to the people who know the gear. I just wish I could get those two LDSs to combine and make the best of both worlds...
 
I have NEVER dove a "traditional" BC (of any description - back inflate, jacket, transpak, etc) that holds the rig as securely as a unit with my body as a plate does.

NEVER.

And I've dove a LOT of "traditional" BCs.

I hate the feeling of the kit moving around on my back. It makes precise trim extremely difficult to achieve and hold if the pack is shifting on you.

The "traditional" shoulder straps are too wide apart at the bottom and the cummerbund doesn't do a thing since by definition it either stretches (no good) or is rigid (worse, especially with a wetsuit) as it must be readjusted at depth due to wetsuit compression, which requires releasing the belly buckle - if there even is one.

This design works for a backpack on LAND, where the load is always "downward" against your shoulders, but DOES NOT work well underwater where the location requirement is in all three axis. Specifically, the top of the pack is not secure because the straps at top do not securely hold the pack's top in position when it is not loaded by gravity downward, and the cummerbund/gut strap is ineffective as it has only lateral control.

The plate solves this problem nicely; the shoulder straps go under the arms AND COME BACK BEHIND YOUR BODY, "locking" the kit at the top. The gut strap is a strap - and is BELOW your diaphram, does not typically interfere with your breathing, and is comfortable. The crotch strap prevents the kit from riding up and becoming loose in the shoulders; without it you can have the same problems you have with a traditional BC. And inflation is on your back where it will not squeeze you at all, and is additionally right on your center of mass. Better wings will have two or three adjustment options allowing you to trim exactly WHERE the lift is provided so as to facilitate proper trim depending on your tank configuration and preference.

IMHO the plate is WAY superior to a "standard" BC. If you want semi-weight-integration with a plate then get a DUI W&T II system - it works and solves that problem nicely.
 
The thing to keep in mind is that all LDS ... even the GUE ones ... are businesses. As such you can expect them to promote their business by trying to sell you their product ... be it equipment or services. All ... just like many who post in here ... are genuinely convinced that what they sell is the best. And for them it may be. For you it may or may not.

Diver education extends well beyond what you learn in the classroom. Take every sales pitch you hear from anyone with a grain of skepticism ... or perhaps it would be better to say that you should realize that these people are trying to earn a living by convincing you that the products they sell are what you want to buy.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's how businesses operate.

One thing I'll urge all of you to do ... especially the new divers in this forum ... is to comparison shop before you purchase. Some specific suggestions with respect to purchasing a BCD or BP/wing would be ...

- Don't buy anything without trying it on first. If possible, try it on wearing the exposure suit you'll be diving in. I would also recommend that you mount a cylinder on the BCD and put it on ... this is, after all, how you're going to be using it.

- If you have the opportunity to bring a more experienced diver with you when you go shopping, do it. Besides having a better idea than you about what types of gear are out there, chances are your more experienced friend has already encountered some of the sales "pitfalls" you are about to encounter with salesmen trying to earn a living.

- Check for both fit and comfort. Shoulder and waist straps should fit snugly, with the possibilility for adjustment both tighter and looser to accommodate any differences in exposure suits should you take the BCD to a warmer or colder climate. The rig should feel comfortable when the straps are snugged against your body. Keep in mind that this is going to work different for a harness system than for a traditional BCD ... and you should understand before purchasing how to make a harness system fit you properly.

- Pay particular attention to how the rig holds the cylinder in place. Does it come with one strap or two? What kind of buckle does it use ... and are the buckles plastic or metal? What you want to ascertain here is that you will be able to put the tank on easily and adjust the straps to hold it tightly. Typically a two-strap system works better than a one-strap system. Also make sure you understand how easily (or not) the straps adjust to accommodate different size cylinders ... some buckle systems are easier in this regard than others. Mount a cylinder on the rig yourself, then lift the rig and give it a good shake to see how well it holds the cylinder in place.

- While you are wearing the rig, have your buddy grasp the cylinder at the valve and boot and "waggle" it back and forth. The cylinder should be held firmly, with little or no movement between BCD and cylinder (ideally, none). If there's wiggle room, consider that the cylinder will move about on your back as you change positions in the water column ... this is bad. Some BCD systems have adjustments to counter any potential tank movement. If that's the case, make sure the salesman shows you how to use these adjustments properly.

- Consider the tradeoffs ... and every rig has them regardless of whether it's a backplate system or a traditional BCD. Tradeoffs include padding ... it's comfortable, but it also adds bulk and flotation. The more padding, the more weight you're going to need ... and the less streamlined you'll be when moving through the water. Does the rig use a waist strap or cummerbund? Cummerbunds provide a nice, snug fit around your waist ... but the tradeoff is that they also restrict your ability to bend over. Depending on your build, this may impact your ability to put your fins on comfortably, or reach that dive knife you've got strapped to your calf. Also keep in mind that cummerbunds are held in place using velcro ... and velcro wears out over time.

- If the BCD is weight integrated, consider whether or not the weight pockets are moveable or stationary. Most are stationary ... which means that you'll have to add weights elsewhere on your body to achieve proper trim. Some are moveable, in which case you can align them to trim you properly depending on your body type, the cylinder you'll be using, and other factors that influence your trim. A number of BCD systems also come with "trim" pockets located around where the cylinder mounts. These can also be quite useful on weight-integrated systems. Also consider how the weight pockets are designed to release. I'd recommend avoiding systems that use a simple velcro flap between weight pocket and BCD, as the velcro wears out these tend to turn into fallaway pockets rather than breakaway pockets ... and losing weights at depth is moderately dangerous (I've personally seen someone cork from 70 feet due to losing a weight pocket).

- Wearing the rig (BCD with cylinder attached), move around a bit and try using the rig in ways you'll be using it underwater. See how easy it is to do a figure-four and reach down as though you're putting on your fins. Better yet, actually put your fins on and see how easy (or not) it is wearing the rig. Try out the "features and accessories". Does the BCD have side pockets? Can you open them without your buddy's assistance? If not then they're of no use to you. Can you reach the D-rings to clip off things like dive lights and other accessories you may want to carry underwater? If you're going to be diving cold water, put some gloves on and see how easy it is to use the inflator hose ... some just aren't built to accommodate gloved hands very well. Is there a logical place to clip off your octopus? And how? Grab a regulator and try it out for yourself before you buy ... you may discover that the hardware on the BCD isn't laid out to accommodate how you want to configure your regulator.

- If the opportunity exists to try it in a pool, take the opportunity. As Genisis just stated ... everything changes when you go from walking/standing on land to getting horizontal in the water. You need to understand what those changes are, and decide whether or how they'll impact your ability to dive this rig properly.

See ... there's concrete things you can do yourself to make sure you're going to be happy with this purchase. Don't just take anybody's word for it that "this is what you want" ... only you really can answer that question.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
NWGratefulDiver:
I'm not quite sure what your purpose in trying to turn this discussion into an argument is all about.

Bob,

Well, if disagreeing with your presenitation means I’m trying to turn this discussion into an argument, I guess I am. IMO your comparison of a BP and wings to traditional BCs is inaccurate and misleading. You credit all of the attributes you like to a BP and wing without acknowledging that it’s possible to achieve the same attributes by looking for them in a more traditional BC. It’s also possible by selecting the wrong components of a BP and wings configuration to lose some or all of those attributes.

So your statements really are only true when you are comparing certain models of BP configurations against certain models of BCD configurations ... and more often than not, your statements are not true at all.

Exactly, and likewise the benefits you are attributing to a BP and wing are only realized when you compare certain BP configurations to certain models of BCDs.

For what it’s worth I think your last post is much more helpful. IMO it gives good unbiased advice on how to select a BCD. If answering the questions you propose leads to selecting a BP and wings then great. But it may also lead to selecting a more traditional BC which is fine also in my book.

Some things I would add are:
Can you get the level of support/service/mentoring you’re looking for the configuration you select? A BP configuration does you no good if you can’t figure out how to rig the harness and have no one to turn to for help. Additionally some instructors refuse to allow students to participate in AOW and Rescue with a single piece harness.

Will the conditions you dive under change? Do you think you may advance toward more technical diving, doubles, drysuit? If so the more flexible the system the less money you’ll have to spend as you change the configuration. To me this is the biggest advantage of a BP and wing.

I see nothing inappropriate about wearing this rig with a single tank. And if you're going to be telling the new divers who read this forum that you think it's inappropriate, I feel it's important that you should give them some concrete reasons why you feel that way. So far nothing you've said seems to me to be a legitimate reason.

I agree with everything you’ve said here so we’ll have to find something else to argue about. :xmas3:

My TransPlate requires no readjustment going from one type of exposure protection to another. You simply put it on and cinch the harness straps ... just as you would with a traditional BCD.

How do you like the TransPlate harness? I just got one, still in the box though; I haven’t attached it to a BP yet. It looks like it will provide some of the comfort and convince of a more traditional BC while maintaining most of the benefits of a BP and wing.

Mike
 
MikeS:
Additionally some instructors refuse to allow students to participate in AOW and Rescue with a single piece harness.

An instructor who does this is one you should not take the class from - particularly for Rescue!

Why? Consider this - do you get to choose what the equipment your victim will be wearing when you come upon them in the water?

IMHO, any instructor for Rescue who does not insure that a harness-style system (with continuous webbing) is not present on at least one diver - being them if necessary - for Rescue class is one you should not take the class from!

How can you possibly learn how to undo someone in such a kit if you have never seen it?!

BTW, it is not necessary to cut the webbing. Done correctly, I can get you out of a continuous harness AT LEAST as quickly as I can a conventional BC, and in some cases more quickly.
 
MikeS:
Additionally some instructors refuse to allow students to participate in AOW and Rescue with a single piece harness.

Really? I'd like to see them justify that with their agencies standards board if they're called on it. My thinking would be that an instructor who makes arbitrary "rules" like that is simply unfamiliar with the equipment that an ever-increasing percentage of divers are using. He probably needs a refresher course :)

WW
 
WreckWriter:
Really? I'd like to see them justify that with their agencies standards board if they're called on it. My thinking would be that an instructor who makes arbitrary "rules" like that is simply unfamiliar with the equipment that an ever-increasing percentage of divers are using. He probably needs a refresher course :)

WW

Policy issues like this are usually made at the store level by the resident course director.

An instructor teaching on his/her own can also make any policy decisions that they want to.

You would be called on to "justify" performance with agency standards whenever there is (1) a complaint or (2) an accident.

Sexual harassment is the most common complaint.

And death is the most common accident.

And neither of the above is usually relevant to a question of when should a diver gravitate to a backplate rig.

The only standards issue that I have seen in writing is the requirement for some sort of buoyancy compensator. Beyond that, it would simply be a store policy issue or an instructor call.
 
WreckWriter:
Really? I'd like to see them justify that with their agencies standards board if they're called on it. My thinking would be that an instructor who makes arbitrary "rules" like that is simply unfamiliar with the equipment that an ever-increasing percentage of divers are using. He probably needs a refresher course :)

WW

Believe it or not I was told this by an instructor who I really wanted to take Rescue from over here, and the worst part of it is that she cave-dives - in a plate!
 
IndigoBlue:
Policy issues like this are usually made at the store level by the resident course director.

An instructor teaching on his/her own can also make any policy decisions that they want to.

You would be called on to "justify" performance with agency standards whenever there is (1) a complaint or (2) an accident.

Sexual harassment is the most common complaint.

And death is the most common accident.

And neither of the above is usually relevant to a question of when should a diver gravitate to a backplate rig.

Actually very few stores have a "resident course director". Only ITC facilities.

Did I not say something like "if called on it"? That was meant to indicate a complaint being made. I'm well aware of the most common complaints but you're way off on the most common accident. Ear barotrauma would be a much better bet than "death".

Did I say it was relevant? I was responding to a post, kinda like you are I guess.

I'll guess that you don't dive a BP/wings, right?

WW
 
Genesis:
An instructor who does this is one you should not take the class from - particularly for Rescue!

Why? Consider this - do you get to choose what the equipment your victim will be wearing when you come upon them in the water?

IMHO, any instructor for Rescue who does not insure that a harness-style system (with continuous webbing) is not present on at least one diver - being them if necessary - for Rescue class is one you should not take the class from!

How can you possibly learn how to undo someone in such a kit if you have never seen it?!

BTW, it is not necessary to cut the webbing. Done correctly, I can get you out of a continuous harness AT LEAST as quickly as I can a conventional BC, and in some cases more quickly.

Demonstrating or practicing basic rescue with a harness, with no quick releases, is annoying. Not impossible, but annoying. Apparently some instructor(s) do not care to deal with the annoyance.

Granted, there are more harness and backplate rigs showing up on the diving scene. They are still less than 1% of all divers, probably.

My new D/M candidate has a backplate and harness. When she is the victim, for demo purposes, I will just deal with the annoyance. It will confuse the students, unfortunately, since students do monkey-see monkey-do, and I will have to repeat regarding the quick releases on the more common gear.

Your potential instructor just was not in the mood, I guess, to deal with the annoyance, Mr. Genesis. :)
 

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