Authoritative Incompetency

[blacknet]

Lost Yooper,

I feel that the problem is NOT just with the cert agencies. It's with enforcment. Who does the enforcment in the community? no one.

Ed

 

[artsprite]

This post brings up a question I had in a store the other day. I'm kind of a newbie myself, but I was taught the dive tables, and that you should know them as a backup before using computers. I was in a store that uses SSI certification. I was looking at computers, and the salesman/owner? made a big deal about the fact that they don't teach dive tables. In fact he said that if an instructor in his store tries to teach them that he'd have to turn in his resignation. They don't even allow them in their classes. Now, this store tries to sell every expensive piece of equip. they can and at a high price and I don't like the way they talk down to me when I'm in the store, but he said no one should use tables anymore and all their rental equip comes with computers that they use in class. He ask me, and I quote, "do you mean that you could use a table right now to plan a dive?" I said yes, I could. He was shocked. I wonder what's going to happen to his students if they go to a third world country to dive and rent equipment that doesn't include a computer. They're going to be lost. I don't really think this is a good idea, and I think they do this just to sell equipment. He said no agency requires teaching tables anymore. What do you all think about this. I personally think that everyone needs to know how to use them even if they plan on using a computer all the time.

 

[blacknet]

Hello,


Some correct me if i'm wrong but isn't there a national standard of what must be covered in scuba classes and isn't table usage on that list?

Ed

 

[artsprite]

That's what I thought Blacknet, and that's what bothered me so much about this anal retentive smart a** in the store. That's also why I don't like the store, and the only reason I went in there was because I was in that city and had some time to kill.

It also worries me a lot about the buddies I might run into on my future dives.

 

[VTWarrenG]

Artsprite,

The instructor would have to turn in his resignation if he provided a reliable, infallible backup dive planning method to his students?

I can fathom this no-tables stuff for only one reason: tables are hard to use for many people. A lot of people claim the table was the hardest part of the entire training. While this amazes me, I have to remind myself that I don't necessarily process information the same way as I do.

However, if the table's a tough challenge, it should be met with even tougher education. All it takes is enough thought, talk, and practice -- and the table will become easy. I can't imagine someone being just fundamentally unable to use a table.

I can, however, imagine divers screwing up a repetitive dive because they can't use the table properly. In that sense, despite the reliability issues, computers are best for some divers, because they makes diving idiot-proof. If the computer fails, they ascend. If the computer doesn't have batteries they (hopefully) don't dive. There's no room for human error.

However, one must ask oneself: should diving BE idiot-proof? Should a person who cannot read a table, or does not have the willpower to learn, really be allowed to place themselves in a hostile environment that threatens to kill them in several different ways if they make a mistake?

Take aviation for example: when you learn to fly, you learn every form of navigation ever used by aviators. Modern GPS eliminates the need for virtually all of those tools -- but the GPS (or the plane's electrical system) will probably fail when you need it most. Flight instructors don't even mention the GPS until you've demonstrated complete proficiency with everything else.

I can't understand why tables wouldn't be always be considered a valuable part of dive education. Most people buy computers anyway, regardless of their training -- so why would instructors or shops purposefully leave the tables out? Answer: it makes their jobs easier, and makes dive classes go by faster. That's the only conceivable reason. Perhaps if the government regulated diving the way the FAA regulates flight schools, this kind of stupidity wouldn't be allowed.

Even more unfortunate is that tables form the basis of gas management. I guess this means gas management is leaving the curriculuum too, to be replaced with such excellent advice as "just burn your tanks up, since we're only at 60 feet."



- Warren

 

[VTWarrenG]

Uncle Pug,

Warren.... UW is the place to be on these wintery Saturday mornings....

You wuss....

You're nuts man!

I couldn't even find a buddy today because it was raining here in northern Cal. Awwwww, poor babies don't want to get wet while diving.

- Warren

 

[blacknet]

artsprite,

Just remember these words of wisdom.

Your life, your call, your way.

Ed

 

[artsprite]

Good points Warren.

I didn't even think it was difficult learning the tables, and I wouldn't want to be without that knowledge.

And about the shop owner saying that insturctors would have to resign if they tried to teach them...
If I were an instructor, I wouldn't even want to work for someone who felt that way. I'd want my students to be armed with all the knowledge I could give them.

 

[artsprite]

short and succinct!

Amen Blacknet!

 

[ScubaDubaDoo]

I walked into my LDS with a coupon for dive instruction that was supposed to cost $130. I thought it was a bargain. What I didn't expect was the high-pressure equipment sale that came with it. Before I even made it in the ocean I owned a Cochran Air/Nitrox computer, a Poseidon regulator, a Poseidon Octo, a dry suit (cuz nobody dives in a wetsuit anymore - or so I was told), a $400 drybox with a lot of stuff in it, and everything else you can imagine, I even have a Parka. I also got tables but was informed that they weren't important because the computer does all the work. I had to nag and whine to the guy to show me how to do the tables because I wasn't getting it. I ended up finding a tutor elsewhere that explained it to me until it was clear. I was also told that Nitrox was the way to go. I didn't understand fully what Nitrox was but I was diving Nitrox before I was certified to dive Nitrox, heck I was using Nitrox before I was OW certified and my computer was set for air not for Nitrox. I didn't even know how to use my computer. I found another diver (same shop) in the same situation and we spent a day going through the manual together until we got it. That's how I figured out that my computer wasn't even set up for Nitrox yet. So I nagged and whined until the LDS set it up because I was told that they needed a special program and it wasn't something I could do myself. I'm still not sure if that's entirely true. The bottom line is that alot of us, including myself, were certified without fully understanding alot of important things like tables, how our own computers worked, and how to get the air out of the dry suit (not kidding). I was not initially trained on using the dry suit. In fact the first time I used the suit was in the ocean on one of my OW certification dives. I stopped using the dry suit when I became aware of the potential danger involved. I now know how to get the air out of my dry suit. I learned that you can only remain clueless so long. I cringe when I think about the things I didn't know then and how my OW class was an accident waiting to happen. Even after we were certified we were still clueless.

It's obvious that what was important to the LDS was selling the equipment. All of the student divers had the same equipment so most of us have the same story. We all had the "how does this thing work?" conversation and the "Did you figure out the dive plan cuz I don't get it?" conversation. I say this is true for about 90% to 95% of the clients at this dive shop.

We have reunions now and talk about what we did, and how lucky we are to have lived through it. We also talk about how our credit cards are having withdrawals. Some of us had to report them lost just to get new cards issued because the LDS had the number.

I think the worst case that I saw at the LDS was a student diver, that had not been in the ocean yet, had stopped by to pick up her rebreather. That's really bad.