Authoritative Incompetency

[neil]

Warren,
You hit the jackpot on that one! Yikes. This is the kind of guy that gives us real instructors a bad name, I think. What a moron. One of my pet peeves is that it's just too easy to become an instructor with certain agencies. Regardless, this dude sounds like he'd be an idiot no matter what he was doing.
You had a comment that I would like to ask about.

"All of them dove nitrox." Was there something inherently wrong with this? Most agencies allow using Nitrox on OW dives if the coursework has been done otherwise. The reasoning (I'm not saying I agree) is that using nitrox does not introduce any truly new in-water skills. In dive planning you'd have a max depth whether or not you had a Nitrox MOD, no? But you said they were on their "post-OW-certification-celebration-trip", so they were already certified? I hope so, because 15 is 7 more STUDENTS than one instructor is allowed to take into OW.

Take a deep breath. Exhale. Ah, relax!

Neil

 

[jmsdiver]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
But it really made me wonder why you didn't walk at the dock???
Was it morbid curiosity

Or, is that mortal curiosity ??

Man, that dive sounds like it sucked, as do the other stories that were posted. Taking a group of freshly, poorly trained divers on a ship wreck could be construed as bad judgement and unsafe. Would this same group be tempted into going inside? I wouldn't want that kind of responsibility; but, that instructor certainly took it upon himself.

In response to the agencies that teach computers only, the only one that I know of is TDI/SDI.

Story:

I was in Cayman not to long ago and the DM/Boat operator was getting pretty tired of the group asking for Orange Canyon all week long (we hadn't be able to get there because of other traffic). By the time the end of the week came around, he was frustrated and was pretty hasty in his judgement. I do not know what dive site we were on, but it was NOT Orange Canyon. Furthermore, the second dive on the two tank boat dive was NOT the site requested, nor was there enough SI time between the sites, plus it was just as deep as the first one, though the map drawn said that it was a max of 40 feet (the top of the reef started at 50). Needless to say, many divers aborted the dive (many were new) and those of use that stayed went into deco. Probably not the best decision on the part of the DM/Crew, and they were not about to declare a mistake.

Story 2:

In Cozumel one year I went down with a group that was divided by New Divers and Experienced divers. Due to that fact, we went on separate boats in the morning so that the new folk would get easier dives and the more experienced folk could get what they wanted. By the middle of the week, the leader of the trip decided to put the two groups together. No big deal in most cases, but this one was different. I got paired with a newly certified diver (which I don't mind since I knew him). The DM of the boat didn't ask about certifications or experience levels of the divers; he assumed that we all were new. One Giant Stride later, I level off at 80 feet off the wall and my buddy kept going down. I signaled for him to come back up, but he didn't understand (narced?). I watched the rest of the group float away in the knot+ current as I went and got my buddy finding that his rented depth gauge was registering 60 feet (oops). I heard tank banging and started looking around and there was the DM signaling frantically for us to start his way then turned around and left, again. Oblivious to the situation and didn't stop long enough for me to signal to him. So, there we are, alone in the deep blue current; we go up a bit and catch up with the group. Back on board, I get an ass chewing by the group leader and the DM because I separated from the rest of the group. I understand that the DM's job depends on getting everyone back safely and that divers have been left behind before, but my concern was for my buddy's safety (him being new and all) and no one seemed concerned. That lack of concern and professionalism really ticked me off. Needless to say I have not taken another trip with that trip leader.

 

[Walter]

You were probably on the General Sherman which was a ship during the War Between the States as a blockade runner. It was captured and renamed. Whoever heard of a blockade runner being named for a hated Yankee general? It is not a "civil war" wreck. Salvaging on that wreck is very common. What is salvaged is the rare ceramic button and lots of lead shot. It's a good idea to remove the lead. This wreck is not one of great historical value.

As for the other issues.......

Yes. PADI does push c-card collecting. All PADI instructors don't, but most do. PADI tries to hide it under "continuing education," but let's face it, many of the "classes" don't warrent a separate class or card. PADI is not the only agency guilty of this, they all are to one degree or another. Even the Y has some specialties (not as many) that shouldn't exist.

Frankly, most instructors are incompetent. Your story does not surprise me, it's fairly typical and I've personally seen much worse. The one defensible point this particular instructor had was this wasn't a class.

DSSW,

WWW™

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Hello Warren & welcome...


I have heard many such tales over the years & my response is always the same:

What was the response of the Instructor's/Dive Leader's certifying agency when you informed them of the actions you witnessed?

If the rec. diving industry fails to police itself then a time will come when the government will step in & regulate. It is the responsibility of EVERY diver to report incompetence, unsafe practices & any other egregious behaviour of those charged with the supervision of the rec. diving public. You will be doing the industry a service, & you just might save someone's life.

Regards,
Daniel J. Vale
N.A.U.I. Inst. # 33649

 

[jmsdiver]

Sometimes I believe that the industry is out to make a buck at the expense of safety. The instructors have little incentive most of the time due to the low pay; many are burnt out due to the responsibility, liability, and the repetitiveness and time put into teaching.

I have to agree with the statement that many agencies have unnecessary specialty classes, that those theories and skills should be taught more often on the whole to the new diver. This is that theory of wanting to make a buck at someone's expense without regard to safety. I know that I went to 100 feet on my second dive ever beyond the requisite OW dives. Was that safe? Probably not, but no one said I couldn't, and I never knew what the potential consequences were at the time. I am sure there are other new divers (or even experienced ones) that do things and then their hindsight is 20/20, like the OW instructors dying in the cave systems of Florida and Mexico.

PADI pushes certification and con-ed classes. I do not agree entirely with their philosophy, especially since they dropped their requisite age before certification. At one time I thought of PADI in high regard, but that was a skewed view because that was all that was offered in my area. Now I'm looking toward other agencies to see if they are a good "fit."

I think that there will be good and bad instructors or dive guides no matter where we look. As stated above, if we do not wish to pay uncle sam to police our activities, then we need to enforce safer diving practices that should be preached to all that enter the sport. We should demand ethical, moral, and intelligent judgements of those we dive with, see diving, or those that lead our industry.

 

[The Chairman]

I am not sure why so many instructors believe they have to have that "swagger" in their steps to be a credible instructor. Their tales of derring do with their classes leaves me cold. They seem to revel in pushing the limits and don't seem to realize the terrible example they are providing to fresh divers, who now see that they need to develop their own swagger to one day emulate their god-like instructor.

Egos have no place in diving or dive instruction. They lead you to make false assumptions about yourself and diving theory. They allow you to fluff off true understanding of the diving environment and let you be condescending to those that are really trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. A person driven by ego seldom questions themselves or what they believe. They assume that just because they believe it, it must be right. An ego centered person is easily frustrated when someone does not agree with them.

The best instructor is still a student at heart. The more they learn and understand about diving the more they realize just how little they actually know. They KNOW that they are not perfect. They question agency practices and re-evaluate theories. No, they may not do this in front of students, but it is there and it is continual. They are not afraid to learn from the freshest student, but they still have the backbone to point out a falacy to their peers. They promote skills and their tales are less about them and more about how awesome our underwater world is. Most of all, they love to teach and their fun attitude is contagious.

There is little hope that we can change an instructor such as the one you described. While he might introduce many to the wonders of diving, he has made his mark... and it's a terrible one. All we can really do is to look at ourselves, and change whatever is in us that is like that instructor. Leave your ego at the house, and understand that you have an awesome challange. Instilling the basic knowledge and a love of learning to dive in each and every one of your students.

End of sermon, please turn in your hymnals to...

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

Had I been on that wreck where they brought up goodies from a protected wreck I would have reached into my dive bag pulled out my marine radio and called the coast guard to report a crime against the U.S. navy. Back at the dock they would have a rather interesting welcome comittee with weapons and handcuff's.

Then I would have contacted the agency and report the situation and give details.

You don't play those wreck striping games on my watch.

Ed

 

[bradymsu]

I'll second what Ed says about artifact collecting. It may be my Great Lakes mentality, but I won't tolerate anyone collecting anything off any wreck. Same goes with feeding wildlife.

In defense of c-card collection, I can see where many of these specialities are a good idea. At my SSI shop, we normally teach a 5-part combination of Drysuit-Nitrox-Deep-Night-Navigation for an Advanced Open Water diver. All of these classes contain valuable skills not covered, at least not covered much, in an Open Water class. The courses also allow these students to make these dives for their first time under the watchful eye of an instructor. Other specialities I recommend are Current and Photography for those interested. Almost all divers taking speciality courses are newer divers with less than 100 dives.

My beef with some instructors and divemaster are those who drink alcohol and smoke around students.

 

[Bob]

There are more Incompetent instructors out there than competent. It's a worry to me and to every serious diver who is concerned about diver safety and proper training. This is a experience I had a few years ago. I had signed up for the AOW class. The instructor was a cocky young guy, but I thought, give him a chance, maybe you have misjudged him. The first night of class he started telling a story about how he was diving in the Keys with his buddy and suddenly he "missed" his buddy. He was frantically searching for his buddy, but couldn't find him anywhere on the reef. What did you do, asked one of the girls in the class, weren't you afraid? No, he replied, I used my training and didn't panic. You guys get the drift of this conversation. Meanwhile, I was setting there doing a slow burn. To make a long story short, he found his buddy at 90fsw, narced out of his mind, BUDDY BREATHING with a 'cuda. Of course he was the hero, saving his buddy from the clutches of the dreaded cuda and escorting his buddy safely to the surface, Implying that he probably saved his buddies life. I think you all can see the holes in this story. What a load of Bullcrap! I didn't enroll in this class to watch some guy posture in front of attractive young ladies! I had heard this old story before, and unloaded on him after he finished. I quit the class on the spot, and demanded my money back. The shop gave me my money back, but told me that I was taking it too personal. You darn right I take my safety and training personal. I take it so personal that I have never gone back to this shop and warn people about this shops lackadasical attitude towards training. BTW, this wasn't a PADI shop. Incompetenance is EVERYWHERE, it's not limited to just one agency. :tree:Bob

 

[Walter]

Do I detect some closed minds?

Artifact collecting is legal on some wrecks, illegal on others. If it is illegal, don't collect. If it is legal, there are differing philosophies. Just because you disagree with collecting doesn't mean you have a right to try to prevent someone from engaging in a legal activity. If it was the General Sherman (as I suspect), it's a good bet that all they came up with is lead shot. This is not of importance to enjoyment of the wreck nor is it of any historical value. It is also a good idea to remove lead from the sea.

There are many excellent specialties, but there are many more that have no reason for existing except to make money for the instructor and the agency. Night diving and boat diving immediately come to mind. Others are very useful, rescue and cave immediately come to mind. There are many more in both categories. Wreck is one that can be either way. YMCA used to have a wreck specialty that allowed no penetration. That was a useless specialty and I never taught it. YMCA now allows me to teach penetration and it is a useful specialty.

DSSW,

WWW™