ATOM 1.0 Air time remaining vs Dive time remaining

[dooz]

Ok... couple of things.

I have read the manual quite carefully for the Atom 1.0. I quote:

"In the event that ATR becomes less than NDC and O2 Time, after 1 minute the Audible Alarm will sound, the LED will flash, and the message VIEW > AIR will scroll at the top for 10 seconds as an alert. Alternate Display #1 will appear with the Pressure value flashing"

This says to me that when ATR is less than NDC and O2 Time, I should be seeing Alternate Display #1 (air time and pressure).

I have PM'd Larry and Joe from Scubatoys, and have verified that they were mistaken about one of their main points in favour of the way that the Atom 1.0 handles this. They have posted a couple of times on how they like the fact that the main number that the Atom 1.0 shows you is the amount of time that you still have at your current depth... whether that be NDC, O2 or ATR. They had assumed that the Atom 1.0 handled this in the same way that many of the other Pelagic computers do, which I believe we all know now not to be true.

Is there any way that Oceanic can produce a firmware load for the Atom 1.0 that would make it behave the way the manual implies that it will, and the way that Larry and Joe from ScubaToys have spoken out in favour of quite clearly?

 

[cerich]

Ok... couple of things.

I have read the manual quite carefully for the Atom 1.0. I quote:

"In the event that ATR becomes less than NDC and O2 Time, after 1 minute the Audible Alarm will sound, the LED will flash, and the message VIEW > AIR will scroll at the top for 10 seconds as an alert. Alternate Display #1 will appear with the Pressure value flashing"

This says to me that when ATR is less than NDC and O2 Time, I should be seeing Alternate Display #1 (air time and pressure).

I have PM'd Larry and Joe from Scubatoys, and have verified that they were mistaken about one of their main points in favour of the way that the Atom 1.0 handles this. They have posted a couple of times on how they like the fact that the main number that the Atom 1.0 shows you is the amount of time that you still have at your current depth... whether that be NDC, O2 or ATR. They had assumed that the Atom 1.0 handled this in the same way that many of the other Pelagic computers do, which I believe we all know now not to be true.

Is there any way that Oceanic can produce a firmware load for the Atom 1.0 that would make it behave the way the manual implies that it will, and the way that Larry and Joe from ScubaToys have spoken out in favour of quite clearly?

The message is telling you to view air and when you do (by pressing the button) the pressure value is flashing which further indicates the situation. I re-read the manual this morning and can honestly say that I didn't read it as it will change over automatically. If it did why would it flash "View Air"?


We don't want you to be unhappy with the purchase. The Atom 2.0 will be out around the end of the month, why don't we extend the 30 day satisfaction until then and if you are still unhappy with the units return them and go with the Atom 2.0

Best,

Chris

 

[Matsya]

We have been in a sales meeting all last week/weekend, sorry for the delay. Between the LED flashing/audible alarm and VIEW AIR flashing there are quite a few indicators that air time is an issue. That being said the Atom 2.0 is different because of user feedback. You may be surprised some early feedback on the Atom 2 from users of the Atom 1 has been they like the Atom 1's handling of this more. The Atom 1 was a departure from our normal where many users are able to use it "intuitively" yet when the manual is read and the unit used it is still very logical. Larry from Scubatoys posted on Scubaboard quite a few times how he prefers the Atom 1. The Atom 2 is a more intuitive but you still need to read the manual!

Hi Cerich,

I have seen examples of your service (the Thailand case that you have referred to earler is a classic) and will have no qualms buying Oceanic products knowing that even if I were to have a problem you will handle it.

I have to agree with dooz though.

Does the Atom 1.0 do what the manual states it will?

If not why not?

Is there any way to make it do what the manual states it will do?

Edit:

Cerich I think our posts crossed. You response to dooz got posted as I was typing this post.

I read the manual again and now see what you mean.

But the statement can be interpreted to mean that the display will switch automatically to Alternate #1 with the pressure flashing. And honestly that is the way that I interpreted it too.

I am PERSONALLY happy with the way it works anyway and find that it is not troublesome to press the button to look at air time remaining or the pressure.

 

[cerich]

Hi Cerich,

I have seen examples of your service (the Thailand case that you have referred to earler is a classic) and will have no qualms buying Oceanic products knowing that even if I were to have a problem you will handle it.

I have to agree with dooz though.

Does the Atom 1.0 do what the manual states it will?

If not why not?

Is there any way to make it do what the manual states it will do?

Yes it does do what the manual says it does which IS different from other Oceanic units.

One thing that happens is when we get used to something working in a certain fashion we expect that to continue, when it doesn't we assume it isn't working as it should. That's the case here. Heck, because we and our dealers (and Oceanic computer users) are so used to the other way I'd bet you would have Oceanic employess who haven't actually been diving extensivly with the Atom 1.0 (we all have what I call our "old sneaker" gear that we grab 90% of the time) will when asked say exactly what Larry did. They would be wrong.

Best,

Chris

 

[Matsya]

Yes it does do what the manual says it does which IS different from other Oceanic units.

One thing that happens is when we get used to something working in a certain fashion we expect that to continue, when it doesn't we assume it isn't working as it should. That's the case here. Heck, because we and our dealers (and Oceanic computer users) are so used to the other way I'd bet you would have Oceanic employess who haven't actually been diving extensivly with the Atom 1.0 (we all have what I call our "old sneaker" gear that we grab 90% of the time) will when asked say exactly what Larry did. They would be wrong.

Best,

Chris

I will shut up on this subject after this post:

Chris, I guess you didn't read my edit.

It comes down to I think trying to make the manual as unambiguous as possible.
I posted in this same forum about a month back on how frustrated I became when I tested the Atom 1.0 on the surface before going on my first dive with it. The link symbol was not coming on despite following all the steps per the manual. I had almost decided that I had a flawed unit until I was reassured after posting in this forum that it would come on ONLY UNDERWATER, which fact is not at all clear in the manual.

If only the phrase "On pressing button 'A' " had been added to the sentence - "Alternate Display #1 will appear with the Pressure value flashing", there would have been total clarity, no confusion.

I can understand after reading it again that the emphasis was intended to be on "Pressure value flashing" but as the sentence is structured that meaning is not conveyed. The way the whole paragraph is structured what I understand is that "VIEW > AIR" will scroll and the display will automatically switch to Alternate Display #1.

 

[dooz]

Hi Chris. Thanks for your offer, but I don't think I can afford the upgrade from the discounted price I got on the Atom 1.0s to the full Atom 2.0 price. As an embedded systems software designer myself, I can understand that you can't go around promising firmware upgrades to every guy that asks, that'd be ridiculous, and very bad business. I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. I'm overall quite happy with the Atom 1.0. It's a nice looking device and pretty easy to use. Sure there are things about it that I'd change (we've already heard about one of them here), but that's pretty much par for the course with tech devices. You give them to a bunch of techy type people and each one is going to crap on about something or other.

I understand that there are a couple of ways of interpreting the text in the manual. In retrospect yours makes sense, but it'd have been a lot clearer if it had said something along the lines of:

"When Alternate Display #1 is viewed and ATR is less than NDC or O2, the pressure value will be flashing."

If I read the online description of the VT3 correctly, the dive time remaining number that it shows will be what we've been describing here... the lesser of ATR, NDC and O2 . Is this correct and will the Atom 2.0 be doing the same thing?

Cheers,

Ian.


Edit: I see Matsya and I have posted very similar things at the same time... Great minds?

 

[cerich]

Until I have a Atom 2.0 in the water and try for myself(end of the week) I'm not going to make any comments from just out of the manual... The Vt3 works that way I will say from first hand knowlege! I want to play with the Atom 2.0 without having buried myself in the manual, it helps me to look at it from the custumers POV instead of the manufs.

The folks that write the manuals are the same folks that do the software, as such sometimes what is "clear as day" to them isn't so much to the rest of us. It's a weakness that comes with being a very small technology company in a small market without the volume of something like a PDA. We have put new checks in place so that as we go forward stuff like this happens less often and we are very confident in the new processes.

I appreciate everybodies input, it gives us some great things to look at!

Best,

Chris

 

[diverdown247]

I'm curious about something on the current subject Cerich.

In nearly all cases, manufacturers do not suggest the pushing of any buttons while underwater. This is simply due to the unpredictability of button seals when the button is depressed.

With that in mind, why would R&D allow a software to be written that would require buttons to be pushed underwater?

I would like to think that R&D would have a product tested from a the stand point of the extreme "what if" cases. If it's mounted on the wrist and has buttons on the sides, it's inevitable that at least 1 button will be pushed while on a dive, unless the buttons are fully recessed to where they can not be pushed. But then there would be the software issue, which leads me to my other question.

Since the Atom 1.0 is supposed to be able to switch between 3 different tanks (such a nice feature for instructors), the product would have to be designed with the previous issue in mind. Just how far away from a transmitter can the product be to recieve the information?

 

[cerich]

I'm curious about something on the current subject Cerich.

In nearly all cases, manufacturers do not suggest the pushing of any buttons while underwater. This is simply due to the unpredictability of button seals when the button is depressed.

Press our buttons all you want! Seriously our buttons are very rarely the failure point

With that in mind, why would R&D allow a software to be written that would require buttons to be pushed underwater?

Because there are so many features in dive computers now. Once we figure out how to have you think about it and the computer does it stage the buttons are toast.

I would like to think that R&D would have a product tested from a the stand point of the extreme "what if" cases. If it's mounted on the wrist and has buttons on the sides, it's inevitable that at least 1 button will be pushed while on a dive, unless the buttons are fully recessed to where they can not be pushed. But then there would be the software issue, which leads me to my other question.

Since the Atom 1.0 is supposed to be able to switch between 3 different tanks (such a nice feature for instructors), the product would have to be designed with the previous issue in mind. Just how far away from a transmitter can the product be to recieve the information?

There are some variables that affect distance but normally it'll drop the signal somewhere between 5-7 feet. So if doing a buddy check swimming up beside the buddy you want to check works fine.

 

[diverdown247]

Thanks Cerich,

We weren't sure if it was going to be 2-3 feet like some of the older transmitter models or if it would be a bit more with the new transmitter designs. 5 feet would be about perfect. In the pool, I could sit in front of a student and ask them to give me the hand signal for their air pressure amount and check it at the same time to make sure they give me the right number.

Could also help if I have a Dive Con working with me. My Dive Con could dive the same product and be staged (for Open Water and tours) so that he/she can monitor 3 and I can monitor 3. That is provided frequency on the transmitters has a wide enough band range that 6 transmitters can run within proximity without causing a problem.

Think I've decided to go with the VT3 so I can continue to take a dive watch with me and retain a full redundancy with my analog gear.