As 911 approaches.. how have you changed ?

[danceswithoctopus]

Ladydiver once bubbled...
Socal is saying you have a choice of doing any one of the three. You can choose to:

1) use your right to vote
2) sit around and complain and do nothing

or

3) leave

You get 3 choices.

Except that he wants "the "Jane Fondas" and "Tom Haydens" of this country" to stop, "moaning and groaning about the Vietnam war and how wrong it was." And suggests that they leave if they don't like it. IMHO they are trying to speak out and initiate change through the aforementioned social discussion. This is not one of the three choices socal proposes; to stand up and openly disagree with what you believe is wrong.

Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

Questioning the actions of our government is not treason, it is duty.

 

[TCDiver1]

danceswithoctopus once bubbled...
Nice try, Gedunk. Nope. Didn't miss that part either. The contradiction inherent in the post is not uncommon. It's just intolorant.

Either I have the right to stay and let my voice be heard, whether by voting or social discussion, regardless of whether or not someone who holds an (equally valid) opposing viewpoint might lable it 'whining' or, as socaldiver suggests, I have to leave.

Can't have it both ways . . . sorry.

oking:

btw: Semper Fi 2U2!

Okay, i see your point. That's not the way i took what he was saying. See Ladydivers post, thats the way i took it. I read you both saying the same thing in a different context.

So you know what Semper Fi means. The question is how? Former Marine or generally knowledgable of Latin?

Ps: Have a great Weekend!

 

[Ladydiver]

Yes, they do have a right to voice their opinions, but Vietnam is in the past. More than 30 years in the past. Whether it was right or wrong, there is nothing we can do to change the fact that it happened.

All those folks (like the Jane Fonda's and Tom Hayden's of the world) who didn't stand behind our young men and women who served in Vietnam, did our country and our people a great disservice by treating those soldiers, sailors, pilots and other troops like dirt when they came back from the confilct. Many of them couldn't get jobs and couldn't support their families. Many of them ended up homeless and destitute. Is that any more right? We can't do anything about that now either.

We can learn from the mistakes of the past, but it doesn't do anyone any good to whine and complain about things that happened 30+ years ago and can't be changed. Sometimes people have to pick their heads up out of the sand and see that the world is moving on.

 

[danceswithoctopus]

gedunk once bubbled...

So you know what Semper Fi means. The question is how? Former Marine or generally knowledgable of Latin?

Ps: Have a great Weekend!

Semper Fi means there is no such thing as a 'former Marine'. Just one like me: not on active duty.

I'm heading off to Alki now to blow bubbles.

Gedunk, you have a great one yourself. Go get wet!

 

[TCDiver1]

Jane went a little further than verbalizing her desire for social change. When she acted on her beliefs in Hanoi against American citizens in prison there, she went WAY over the line of acceptable civil disobedience IMO.

 

[large_diver]

Having lived outside the US before and been on the direct receiving end of anti-American attitudes, I like to think I am at least somewhat aware of how we are thought of by people from other cultures and countries.

I agree that we have our issues. We are the biggest (some would say fattest), richest, highest consuming kid on the block. We are a more than a little self-absorbed. In many ways much of this country DOES need a reality check, which is what I guess 9-11 was in some ways.

At the same time, I think other cultures need to open their eyes a little wider when it comes to the issues they see around them and stop blaming the US for everything they don't like.

 

[Dectek]

My fiancee and I actually talked about telling folks that we were from Canada while we travelled. It is not because we are not patriotic.... It is for safety reasons. We stopped wearing articles of clothing with the US flag or the words America or United States on them while outside of US or Canadian territories a couple of years ago because of a couple close calls (Anti-American) while in other countries. We also read news print and see broadcasts from other parts of the world and it scares the bageebees out of me as to how the world feels about Americans. Heck.....if the whole world loved the US then 911 would not have happened. I truely believe that Many Americans do not see the whole picture and should watch foriegn broadcasts for some enlightening.
I would also like to bring up the fact that I will be in a Plane from 08:00 to 13:00 on 9/11/02. It made me think twice...would you give it a second thought? How safe do you really feel?


I also want to ask WHY there was a shortage of US flags right after 911. I heard people say they wanted to buy a flag to show how patriotic they were. My response was: " If you are so ^&*#$%@ Patriotic...How come you don't already own and fly a flag!!!":box:

 

[Phoenix]

Heh, even I have an american flag
not a huge one, but an american flag none the less
My British one is bigger mind you

As to the flying thing, really depends on the type of flight and its depature / destination, On a flight from Heathrow to the states i wouldn't think twice, and indeed didn't when I flew last October, but an internal one? well, I would think "twice" that's not to say I would not take it

 

[socaldiver]

I sort of ran a few things together and I guess made it sound confusing.

I was just trying to say that you at least have options available to you in this country, one of which is that if you don't like the way things are you have the option of moving to another country that you feel you will fit in better.

Again, apologize for making it to confusing.

 

[danceswithoctopus]

gedunk once bubbled...
Jane went a little further than verbalizing her desire for social change. When she acted on her beliefs in Hanoi against American citizens in prison there, she went WAY over the line of acceptable civil disobedience IMO.

As I said, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

socal: how do you reconcile your contradictory viewpoints? Can Jane and Tom speak out (whine) and still remain here? Can whiners be 'good' Americans? Or are you speaking as gedunk and ladydiver suggest about Jane's actions in Hanoi? I really don't mean to pick on you, I just don't like to see Americans who can't accept diversity of opinion. Intolerance really scares the kaka out of me.

Can a good American speak out against the government? Or is it my country right or wrong? I served my time in the corps, put my butt on the line, and I disagree with many things I see this country doing. And I believe it's my duty to try to change those things, by voting, speaking out, and engaging in nonviolent protests when necessary. Just as it was my duty when I was active to obey the orders of the President, whether or not I agreed with them.

Dectek: great point about the flag! d'ya think it's the same people who buy sports paraphernalia when the team's winning? And brings to mind again my pet peeve about those freaks (you know who they are) who put flags on their vehicles and go driving around. Not that that in and of itself is bad, but they don't remove them at night (and they're not properly lighted); the flags get tattered and aren't properly destroyed/replaced, they're allowed to disintegrate (most of us have seen the tattered ones); and when they fall off they lie beside the road on the ground. Is this a way to show respect? Get a freakin' red, white and blue banner or a sticker or something. I may not agree with my government, I may protest against policys I abhor, but I'm an American, I love the United States (even when I don't always love her government or some of her people), I think the Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written (have you read it?), and Old Glory is the symbol for all of the underlying good inherent in the foundation of the US. And it really offends me to see her treated like a foam finger at a football game.

$.02
(did I get carried away there?)