Article on Ben McDaniel - Vortex Springs Case

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I've not posted in this thread until now as I'm trying to get some idea of what exactly is going to transpire in the film. And what kind of distribution will it get is of major intertest to me. For the last 3 years I've been looking into fatalities where divers went beyond their training or ignored it. In a number of cases they had nothing to ignore due to the fact that the real dangers of diving beyond training and in fact diving in general were not conveyed to them. I've written and given a couple presentations on this and found in those cases a very appreciative and sometimes shocked audience. Without resorting to pictures of dead divers and sensationalizing the facts it has become clear to many that there seems to be some type of movement to keep some of this information on the down low.

I've also gotten flack from other instructors who say I should not talk about such things in the graphic detail I sometimes do. In classes with students no punches are pulled. My public presentations are something I'd like to see get more exposure. Even if it means taping them and putting them on you tube for anyone to view. I am looking forward to attending at least one and hopefully all of NetDoc's seminars on the use of social media at DEMA. I admit that part of that is to increase my business and see nothing wrong with that.

But the safety aspects that I feel are so important are things that I'd like to keep separate as those things should not be used for my own direct financial profit. And indeed they might possibly have a negative impact on it. My "Failure of the Buddy System" talk was given at one dive club meeting that is sponsored by a local shop and they have never invited me to do another.

Any exposure the public, and especially new divers, can get to the facts about scuba is a good thing. Cave diving, wreck diving, and any type of diving beyond the shallow,warm, clear water fun stuff is often the subject of misinformation on the part of the general media. Cave diving is portrayed as dangerous yet rarely is anything said about just what training is required and that a number of the fatalities are from those who did not have that training yet are potrayed as "highly experienced" divers. When in fact some of them were practically noobs from a cave training standpoint or worse had no training. Same with wrecks. And if you do a little digging the media acts like someone with 50 dives over ten years is one of those "highly experienced" people. It needs to be made clear to the media and families like Ben's that in reality these dead people died or presumably died because they knew next to nothing and were really full of crap.

Talking ill of the dead? Nope, not as I see it. More like laying out the facts. Instead of hushing things up and covering or glossing over them why not come right out and say that some of these people died because they were doing something they were not trained for and approached it in a way that they in fact should have died or gotten hurt. Highly knowledgeable and experienced people do not cobble together gear from what others may consider junk. They do not do 300 foot dives on single al80's and air and come back unscathed unless they are very lucky or just happened to pick a day when death was busy elsewhere.

Some though find that he may have been busy that day but he can always play catch up. Glossing over or covering up this info is what gives any kind of diving a bad name as it seems to encourage others to try the same stuff. And then they died and oh my what a tragedy, so unexpected as they were so experienced. Bull. They got what they asked for. In this case, based on the reports, Ben is not in the cave. But if he were he should have died doing what he did. He would have asked for the outcome. And maybe seeing his body pulled out would have discouraged others from being that stupid.

Perhaps seeing the outcome (hospital, body, and maybe autopsy pictures) of other people who did stupid stuff would save some lives as well.
 
Another reason non-cave certified divers die in caves is open water instructors who do open water certifications in springs. The student enjoys the warm gin clear water and returns sans instructor and good common sense. For the most part they don't know any better. Jim, I for one fully support what you are doing, stupid/ignorant should be taught and shown. People remember pictures better than lectures, One reason they went to pictures on cigarette packs.
 
Its a real conundrum... Enlighten the masses about the dangers of diving and hope to God they just don't shut us out of the world we enjoy so much. Thats(disallowing diving in private sites) a hellovalot easier than turning the perception of some non-diving land owner who may think he might be liable for some death(and recent diver death lawsuits just give credance to that).


I personally think its well known that divers need specific training for certain environments. This isn't the '70s. Everyone and their brother seems to be an instructor and wants to sell you a class for everything/anything.


If anyone thought that Ben was a well experienced diver, I'd put money on it that he told them that dream...
 
Exactly and that's why it needs to get out that he was or MORE LIKELY IS full of crap. As it appears to the observer who has followed the event and has any real inkling of the skills and qualifications of those sent in to retrieve him. The problem is those who have not followed it and don;t have an idea of what doing what was attempted really takes. This is why the landowners are scared. Not just in cave country but even in some of the private quarries we have up here. As long as some lawyer will file a frivolous suit they have reason to be. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Sue the landowner that allowed you for years to dive, ride dirt bikes, quads, fish, hunt, or take a dump on their land. Snake bites you on the butt while you are squatting naked from the waste down over his den and you sue the landowner? Stupid should be painful and not rewarded with cash.
 
I personally think its well known that divers need specific training for certain environments.
Boy, I would say the events in general on ScubaBoard over the past few months show that to be less than universally true.

Last spring I talked with a technical diving instructor who doesn't have 5 minutes of cave training. He says he has a friend who is a cave diver, and he is trying to get the friend to take him into Diepolder II. I told him it was not a good idea.

If anyone thought that Ben was a well experienced diver, I'd put money on it that he told them that dream...
There is no doubt about it, at least initially. He openly bragged about it to his legions of friends and family, and they have since been carrying his message of diving greatness to the ends of the earth. Now they all know how little training and experience it takes to be a master cave diver.
 
Boy, I would say the events in general on ScubaBoard over the past few months show that to be less than universally true.

Last spring I talked with a technical diving instructor who doesn't have 5 minutes of cave training. He says he has a friend who is a cave diver, and he is trying to get the friend to take him into Diepolder II. I told him it was not a good idea.

You can't fix stupid, some people are beyond help.

There is no doubt about it, at least initially. He openly bragged about it to his legions of friends and family, and they have since been carrying his message of diving greatness to the ends of the earth. Now they all know how little training and experience it takes to be a master cave diver.

Who are they gonna believe? Their son, who couldn't have possibly done anything wrong, or a complete stranger whois pissed they can't dive as hard or as far as Sheck's new prodigy?
 
You can't fix stupid, some people are beyond help.

Who are they gonna believe? Their son, who couldn't have possibly done anything wrong, or a complete stranger whois pissed they can't dive as hard or as far as Sheck's new prodigy?
My comments were not limited to his parents. I thought the comments about his message of diving greatness being carried to the ends of the earth implied a larger circle.

Since I never see you post outside of the cave diver forums, and since I see you post in other cave diver forums, I am going to assume that you limit your online reading to this area. You may not be aware, then, that there has been a whole lot of activity regarding violating recreational limits and its consequences lately. Several people have dived after doing so. What is amazing, though, is the number of people who have stepped forward and said they are doing nothing wrong in doing so.
  • Three highly experienced recreational divers planned a single tank dive to 300 feet, one got narced and went to 400 before another stopped her. One is dead; one is paralyzed; one will recover. In the weeks that followed (and continuing now), a SB regular has been starting thread after thread after thread telling how such dives are just dandy and safe. He has had some support. In one of the threads about the three divers, someone posted about how he loves to do those kinds of dives because of the great feeling he has when he surfaces.
  • After a day of fishing in Louisiana, two fishermen put on single tanks and took spears down below 200 feet in search of groupers. One did not return. In the thread on that incident, a bunch of fellow deep spearos joined SB to say that there was nothing at all wrong with that--sometimes people die on scuba. They were so rude and insulting to everyone who suggested that the dive plan was not good that the entire thread was thrown out.
  • There was just a new incident in Germany with two deaths on a dive planned to 50 meters on single tanks. That discussion is still evolving.
So I would say that the idea that everyone knows and obeys recreational limits is questionable.

The audience that will benefit the most from this is the audience of people who are thinking that cave diving is no big deal. They may never have heard of Ben, but they think that maybe they, too, have the skills it takes to go into a cave like that. Perhaps this movie will scare that notion out of them.
 
I would also like to address the issue of private land owners restricting access as a result of this movie. I believe it will have the opposite effect.

In the recent case of the three deep divers mentioned above, one of the divers lied about the circumstances and said that these three very highly experienced divers had been caught in a killer down current that dragged them from recreational depths to 300 feet. The immediate response was people canceling planned dive vacations to Cozumel. If those currents are so bad that even people with that much experience are unable to fight them, then what chance does a vacation diver like me have? The other operators on the island were quite upset. They were subtle about how they did it, but those who knew the truth got the message out. The divers were not caught in some natural cataclysm--they had foolishly done an unsafe dive.

I don't think you want the message to private land owners to be that cave diving is so very dangerous that even highly trained cave divers like Ben are unable to cope with those dangers.
 
Again, sometimes you can't fix stupid. In all of your examples, I'm guessing they all were trained to do otherwise, they just disregarded that training to the unfounded conclusion that the rules don't apply to them.



Shut it all down, dissallow divers, and less of them will die - the logic is pretty easy eh?.
 
Hubris is an amazing motivator. I remember suggesting that being "Cave Certified" does not qualify you to dive alone at Bonne Terre Mines. Some cavers were incredulous that I suggested this. Of course, they hadn't been in that environment and their comments were based on their ignorance amplified by hubris. If you tell enough people just how elite you are, by gum, you're going to buy the lie along with them.
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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