Are you experienced?

[Bzzzz]

Hey all,

Reading through a couple of different threads recently has got me thinking.

What defines a diver's experience level?

To me, it seems very difficult to define. However, it seems like everyone has their own definition that they stick to, and it seems that not everyone is looking at each individual diver as being separate from others.

It seems like I hear alot of...

"The diver does not have enough dives for that type of diving...."
"That diver does not have enough dives for that course..."
"The diver needs more dives before going deeper..."
"That diver should not even THINK about doing 'this or that'....they need more experience..."

My question is, without knowing where the diver came from, what type of instructor/course they had, what type of skills they have in the water...

How can we really know if they are ready or not?
It just seems like alot of people just jump to conclusions.

With regards to experience, do you generally look at how many c-cards/levels a diver has to define experience... there's more than one agency out there where c-cards can be bought, so should that count?

Seems to me most people look at the number of dives a diver has. Is this really justified?... what if they've done 300 dives diving vertical with no awareness to their surroundings?

What agency?...does that matter? (I bring up the whole 'agency' thing as I have heard arguements before like..."a Dir-Fundies grad with 50 logged dives is more 'experienced' than a 'so and so' diver with 150 logged dives"......

I have also seen that some have quoted that until you have had the '$@#%'
hit the fan underwater a few times in various circumstances, then a diver should not be considered 'experienced'....

Agencies put minimum standards on divers for continuing education whether it be a minimum # of dives, or being at a certain level for a certain amount of time until the diver has more 'experience'...

I am just wondering what everyone thinks as I am thinking about getting into technical training, but I have done alot of reasearch and it seems like alot of people just cringe at the very thought of this..... Why?...because I have only been diving for a year, and I have just surpassed my 100 logged dive mark.

I get alot of 'looks' when I tell people that I want to take tech training at this point in my diving career. Most have said that I 'SHOULD' have AT LEAST 300-500 (some say 1000+ :11: ) logged dives before I even think about tech training, and that I should be a diver for 2-5 years before I think about it!! They would say I need more 'EXPERIENCE' :11:

How can people just make this assumption not knowing my skill/experiences level?

Is this type of opinion based on years and years of divers doing some pretty stupid things beyond their level and now it seems all divers fit in the same category?

I personally look at each diver differently, and to me, I cannot define their 'experience',
until I dive with them and then make a judgement call. Trust me, I am not being egotistical, but I am sure you all will agree, I have seen some pretty horrible divers that have been diving for a long time, with 2000 dives, that IMHO, should NOT be thinking about doing technical training.
BUT, according to most people, their diving 'resume' supports their going to the next level....

Please tell me what you all think....

To you, how do you define experience?

Thanks,

Bzzzz

 

[gecko2gecko]

I'm grabbing the popcorn for this one...I can't wait to see this.

 

[stevetim]

Experience is a broad kind of term to use in diving. Whether or not it is quality vs. quantity experience is another question. I have only had about 20 'experiences', but I have practiced what I have learned and learned a lot from the dives in regards to air comsumption, peak buoyancy control, non-threatening interaction with marine life, dive planning and plan diving...and so on. However, some of the less inclined people I dive with have about the same number of 'experiences' under water as I, and still can't figure out how to hover harmlessly over a reef. So when someone says they have logged 50 dives...big deal and so what! That doesn't mean they are conscious, capable, "experienced" divers. Of course, the 50+dive parties will jump on my comment. Of course most people, I would assume, that take the time to come here and post are more serious about diving than just putting on the gear and jumping in for an afternoon swim.

So although I have only 20 dives under my wetsuit, I have more "experience than some divers with more dives. Perspective I guess.

 

[Bzzzz]

BTW...I welcome all comments!!

 

[djkpsu]

I don't think it really matters what other divers think about my experience. If I am comfortable with doing this dive or that dive, then I will do it. After all my safety is in my hands.

If I want to take a course, then its up to the instructor to say if they'll accept me into the course or not. Then at the end its up to the instructor to say whether I passed or not.

In terms of diving experience is a very very relative and subjective term. I don't think there is one way to define an experienced diver.

I think a better way to look at is a style of diving. Find a style that you enjoy and go with it. Then find people to dive with who share your style. In the end diving is supposed to be a fun hobby.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Well, Jimi Hendrix is...


There is no way to judge quality of dives, so I think quantity is the only way to go. The more bottom time you have, well...generally, experience is acquired by repetition. I don't care how amazing a student you are, you should be required to have a large amount of 'non-student' dives before you move to a dive leader level. ALL the agencies should raise the bar on this point. I've mentioned it before, I know two instructors who have never dived other than when either they were a student, or they had students, and that is just wrong.

With your situation, ask yourself if you are ready, and be honest and unmerciful with your answer.

 

[JeffG]

Well...I have my PADI Advanced open water, so that makes me an advanced kick ***** diver in my books.

 

[Diver0001]

First a few specific answers from my point of view

What defines a diver's experience level?

Essentially I would (I suspect many people would) equate experience with showing comfort with respect to basic skills, low stress levels and the ability to handle problems as they arise. If a diver still has trouble clearing his/her mask or he still can't control his/her buoyancy then I would define them as inexperienced with respect to basic skills. Likewise when problems arise and they can't handle it assertively, directly and efficiently I would define them as inexperienced with respect to problem solving.

As an aside to this I would be very careful about declaring that someone is a poor diver if they are inexperienced. There is overlap but they are different things. A poor diver may be a diver with plenty of experience but some bad habits (like poor buddy contact). Likewise a beginner who approaches his/her diving with intelligence and an awareness of personal limits and limitations shouldn't be labeled a poor diver.

My question is, without knowing where the diver came from, what type of instructor/course they had, what type of skills they have in the water...

How can we really know if they are ready or not?

You have to see them in the water. It's not for nothing that every course starts with a pool session. That's so the instructor can get an idea of what he has in the house.

With regards to experience, do you generally look at how many c-cards/levels a diver has to define experience... there's more than one agency out there where c-cards can be bought, so should that count?

When DMing you have to get an idea by asking questions like which card, how many dives and where most of those dives were made. However, the only way to see for sure is to dive with them. That's part of the reason why lots of trips start out with a "check out" dive. It's to give you a chance to sort out your kit for local conditions and for the DM to see what you look like in the water.

And one point about buying C-cards. Some instructors sell C-cards. Agencies do not. One has to be careful which instructor they choose, not which agency.

What agency?...does that matter?

No. Not in my opinion.

(I bring up the whole 'agency' thing as I have heard arguements before like..."a Dir-Fundies grad with 50 logged dives is more 'experienced' than a 'so and so' diver with 150 logged dives"......

mmmmmmm......well.... If you take experience to mean what we defined above, namely comfort with basic skills, low stress and adequate, goal oriented problem solving then i think that *some* people coming out of DIR-F have a head start. Some people coming out of DIR-F also have bruised egos and are more insecure about their diving than they were before (less at ease = more stressed) and some people coming out of DIR-F have become arrogant to the point that you don't want them around your other clients. In that sense you don't want to just look at DIR'F and say "he checks out". You want to look at how the person conducts him/her-self during the dive and with the other divers. Once again it comes down to the need for a check out dive.

I have also seen that some have quoted that until you have had the '$@#%'
hit the fan underwater a few times in various circumstances, then a diver should not be considered 'experienced'....

I think this is true, given that we defined experience partly to mean that the diver has adequate, goal oriented problem solving skills. I think these skills will "flow" more easily if the diver has had to solve a number of real-world problems and has had the chance to gain confidence in his/her ability to deal with unexpected situations. Some people are naturally so calm in the water that it doesn't make that much difference but for many people it does.

Having said that, I think there is a large bandwidth in "s**T hitting the fan" and if a diver has had things happen and was unable to cope then it will undermine confidence. I recently had a diver in the pool, for example, who had "s**T happen" and their buddy died. That's not the kind of thing that builds confidence.

I am just wondering what everyone thinks as I am thinking about getting into technical training, but I have done alot of reasearch and it seems like alot of people just cringe at the very thought of this..... Why?...because I have only been diving for a year, and I have just surpassed my 100 logged dive mark.

Maybe. or maybe they've seen you in the water and are thinking things that they're afraid to tell you.... OK, it's a bit of a joke but why don't you ask some of your firends for an honest, no-holds-barred assessment of your skills. I can guarantee you that it won't be easy to hear (and it won't be easy for your friends to tell you) but these kinds of discussions can be very helpful.

How can people just make this assumption not knowing my skill/experiences level?

Not always. But there is a sort of normal *range* of skills, comfort and problem solving ability you can expect from a cross-section diver with 100 dives. I don't know you but I *do* know and have seen hundreds of other divers with similar numbers of dives and I've built up a prejudice (call it a mental image) of what to expect. I suspect the comments you're getting from whoever is saying it is based on a similar "mental image".

Ultimately, however, you still need to see them in the water.

Is this type of opinion based on years and years of divers doing some pretty stupid things beyond their level and now it seems all divers fit in the same category?

I think I might have just answered that.

Now let's turn the tables around. Tell us why you think you are ready.

R..

 

[AndyNZ]

Essentially I would (I suspect many people would) equate experience with showing comfort with respect to basic skills, low stress levels and the ability to handle problems as they arise.

Nice definition. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, this isn't a direct relation to the number of dives a person has done.

I met a very pleasant lady recently on a dive boat who was very quiet and unassuming. It turns out that she had done around 300 dives - but every single one had been with a guide and she actually had to hold my hand for her descent. She wasn't experienced but she did know her limitations, which I guess is the first step towards experience?

On the same boat, there was another person who was a PADI Rescue Diver, had done about 30 dives and refused the opportunity to go for a dive with a guide. He got buddied up with a diver of similar experience and the DM on the boat made some polite suggestions on how to plan their dive for the specific site. Needless to say this particular buddy team had all sorts of problems, simply because they didn't know their limitations.

I would say that I would be ready for "higher training" (e.g. tec) when I am diving comfortably at what I know consider to be my limitations.

 

[utnapistim]

for me it's a lot like computer programming: you can be in it for ten years and still be bad , or 6 months and be very good.

it's (mostly) a matter of best practices ...

like - for example - thinking about what you did wrong after a dive, and trying to avoid the problem in the future (i don't mean solve the problem, but make sure it won't arrise at all).

mostly it's about seing what works best ... and you get that usually by being wrong and making mistakes

I'm PADI AOW and very much a beginner for example (but getting better - i hope).