Are there people who just CANNOT dive?

[boulderjohn]

You got a link? This is news to @decompression and me. I mean, I'd like this to be true. Just looked over 2021 and 2020 training updates.

It was news to me, too.

We had a FaceBook discussion about the coming webinar, and you participated. In that discussion, I talked in detail about the process of getting the neutral buoyancy article published by PADI a decade before that. I talked about PADI's efforts to promote neutral buoyancy instruction, which I felt (and feel) have not been strenuous enough. Mark participated actively in that discussion that talked about PADI's efforts to encourage neutral buoyancy instruction.

Then the webinar began, with different SDI instructors talking about how great it was to teach students while neutrally buoyant. Throughout the webinar, people watching could comment and ask questions in the side panel. On several occasions, PADI instructors among the watchers asked if PADI permitted neutral buoyancy instruction, and each time I jumped in to write that PADI not only allowed it, they encouraged it.

At the end, Mark answered questions from the list. He noticed the questions on whether PADI allowed it, and he said he was an SDI instructor, not a PADI instructor, and so he had no idea if PADI allowed it. He clearly (at least in my memory--and it was a sore point) said that SDI required it, so if PADI instructors wanted to teach that way, they should cross over to SDI. At the very, very end, as people were closing up, he noted that I had said PADI allowed it.

I have not participated in the FaceBook group since that webinar.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@boulderjohn

the WRSTC members, none i believe ban placing students at some point, not even RAID (which does require skills to be ultimately performed NB).

As far as that seminar goes, I'd have to relisten to ve 100% sure, I dont recall anyone saying to PADI instructor s that they cant teach NB/T. Thats just false. And rather stupid to say given your article from PADI's training journal in 2011 being available online (as I've often given a link to it). I'd be surprised if Mark, Demis, or the other featured SDI participants said that.

Now I'm not going to watch that video ever again as I didnt find any value for me personally. I saw it addressing the fact that so many instructors don't believe ir is possible to teach an entire course off the knees.

You do have a tendency to twist things when you feel anything PADI related comes up, even if only facts are presented

 

[boulderjohn]

I dont recall anyone saying to PADI instructor s that they cant teach NB/T. Thats just false.

He didn't say PADI instructors could not teach that way; he said he didn't know if they could. He clearly advised them to switch to SDI if they wanted to be sure they could.

I called him on it in a private message. He did not reply.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I once did a discovery dive with a couple, the guy was a natural and very comfortable in the water. The girl on the other hand was very determined to dive but not very capable of it. I spent 2 hours in the water trying to get her to float straight on the surface, whatever I would do she would paddle with her hand until she got tipped over and did a very convincing overturned turtle impression. No matter how I tried I could not get her to hold that hand still. So after 2 hours of me giving her lighter and lighter tanks, removing and adding weights, grabbing her by the valve/hand and trying to get her straight I had to give up.
She went to all 5 dive centres on the island and had the exact same problem with 5-6 other instructors.

Did anyone try smaller steps? Mask/snorkel exercises while standing in chest deep water? Freediving skills? I don't personally jump straight to scuba but i dont do Try Scuba experiences either. I understand that there are often time pressures at play here.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Colombo, your case remembers me of a student I had in the eighties. She was a a 30-years old young lady, highly motivated in becoming a scuba diver, but showing evident problems in controlling her body, her breathing, and the valves inside her skull (also she was "drinking from the nose" if the mask was suddenly removed, or her glottis did block when water was entering her nose).
She repeated the OW course several times, both in her city (Milan) and at the resort where I was working, so she changed at least 4 different instructors, including me and my wife.
After hours of work in the pool and in the sea, she managed to perform the required skills. But, after completing correctly the required exercises, any minor perturbation or inconvenience was enough for her loosing control and starting moving (and breathing) in an uncontrolled way, or even bolting to the surface.
After she visited our resort for the third time in 2 years, always being denied the full OW certification, we evaluated her case and we decided to give her a lower-level certification (which I cannot translate properly in English), but the meaning was that she was not certified as an autonomous diver, but as a "resort diver" who was allowed to dive only under the control of a divemaster. We did think to having solved the problem, but when we gave her this cert, she was terribly upset. She did not want to be a "B-series" diver, she wanted the full OW certification, which frankly was impossible for her to get.
So I must admit that yes, there is people who has some sort of problems impeding to control their body (and possibly their brains) in a way which makes diving autonomously to be reasonably safe. However these people, if well motivated, can still dive safely under the careful control of a divemaster or instructor.

 

[Cap335]

I have had 1 student that took 5 classes to get to the point where I was comfortable enough to take to open water. The breakthrough came when we did a pool session with no skills. We started in full gear swimming around the pool on the surface then just off of the bottom in the shallow end of the pool then finally swimming around the bottom of the deep end until she was low on air. Because she had done a full dive she was able to get back in the pool and start doing skills.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The breakthrough came when we did a pool session with no skills. We started in full gear swimming around the pool on the surface ........

I like that and did use that once. Made a big difference.

He didn't say PADI instructors could not teach that way; he said he didn't know if they could. He clearly advised them to switch to SDI if they wanted to be sure they could.

I called him on it in a private message. He did not reply.

Mark is pretty busy and doesnt reapond to all messages. He's responded to some of mine but definitely not all.

 

[WeRtheOcean]

I still can't ride a bike, and I'm just a few years shy of 50. I am typing this one-fingered (except for the space bar and shift, which are the other hand). I was never good at any sport either. But those certain physical things that really matter to me, I have persevered until I became able to do them to my own satisfaction. I push myself. A LOT. My secret is that once I have decided that something is worth my while to do, I do not ever give up; other things, that do not hold as much interest for me, I let go, so as to save my mental and physical faculties for the things that do matter to me.

 

[Colombo]

I feel like crying with rage. I was going to start my OWD course tomorrow... And it's one hour since I returned from hospital, where they have given me an injection of Diazepam, or Valium, or whatever, after being the whole night awake howling with pain with what in the evening looked like a serious bout of stiff neck which hurt even when not moving, but which had spred to my shoulder, arm and wrist by midnight. I don't think I had ever felt that much pain before.

So there's no way I'm going to do that OWD course from tomorrow on. The doctor said that even with the four medicines I've been prescribed (nine pills a day), it will be some days before I stop noticing the next pills are due because the pain starts to build up again. He even said that the pills might not remove all the pain as the injection has, so there may be some residual pain constantly.

Certain words are crossing my mind now, but since I don't think they are appropriate to say in public, I won't write them. But you get the idea.

I've already told the people at the dive shop, and they say I can enrol in any other course whenever I can attend... Only they are all sold out until at least September. This means I will have to renew my medical certificate, which expires this month (at my age and in Spain, I must renew it every year). Otherwise, I've made up my mind, after reading you all, to try and find some sort of "private tutor".

I still intend to try to get my OWD certificate in the same school. As I told you, they have a very good reputation, in the sense that they won't give you the certificate unless you're really prepared... Which I find reassuring. If I go to another school, I will always have the doubt whether their teaching style has suited me better, or they have given me the certificate just to get another happy customer. So I'll find someone else reasonably nearby and ask whether they'd be willing to give me a couple of one-to-one classes. Perhaphs that's what I need, some time in which I can go through whatever is causing trouble without having to rush because seven other students are waiting for me. I'll also buy a mask, fill it with water and try to learn to breathe through the snorkel with it on, at home.

I could take this as a signal sent from Heaven to stop me from doing more OWD courses... But I'm choosing not to understand it that way. I do want to try. If I eventually fail, I hope at least I won't be upset, like Angelo's student. Only very disappointed, but happy to have tried.

 

[Marie13]

Colombo, your case remembers me of a student I had in the eighties. She was a a 30-years old young lady, highly motivated in becoming a scuba diver, but showing evident problems in controlling her body, her breathing, and the valves inside her skull (also she was "drinking from the nose" if the mask was suddenly removed, or her glottis did block when water was entering her nose).
She repeated the OW course several times, both in her city (Milan) and at the resort where I was working, so she changed at least 4 different instructors, including me and my wife.
After hours of work in the pool and in the sea, she managed to perform the required skills. But, after completing correctly the required exercises, any minor perturbation or inconvenience was enough for her loosing control and starting moving (and breathing) in an uncontrolled way, or even bolting to the surface.
After she visited our resort for the third time in 2 years, always being denied the full OW certification, we evaluated her case and we decided to give her a lower-level certification (which I cannot translate properly in English), but the meaning was that she was not certified as an autonomous diver, but as a "resort diver" who was allowed to dive only under the control of a divemaster. We did think to having solved the problem, but when we gave her this cert, she was terribly upset. She did not want to be a "B-series" diver, she wanted the full OW certification, which frankly was impossible for her to get.
So I must admit that yes, there is people who has some sort of problems impeding to control their body (and possibly their brains) in a way which makes diving autonomously to be reasonably safe. However these people, if well motivated, can still dive safely under the careful control of a divemaster or instructor.

PADI has that certification - it’s called “scuba diver.” Must always dive with a dive pro.