Are SCR's the RHSC of the Rebreather World?

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I think that would be the #1 reason to pay the extra bucks for the eCCR. However, you make a point (and it has been pointed out elsewhere on this board) that if the electronics bite it, your done diving.

If any electronics 'bite it' you have an issue, this is with any breather that has any electronics (cell read out, PO2 monitor etc, etc). A lot of people bundle up all electronic failure in one. There are of course redundancies and levels of failures. This is where the differences come in play. You can run a eCCR as a mCCR as long as you have PO2 read out (and there are redundancies). You can run both e- and mCCR as SCR, you don't necessarily need PO2 read out (provided you planned your dive correctly). You can run all breathers OC if you want/have to and with correct planning this can bring you home. And of course you bring enough bailout gas......

Electronic failures should be seen in perspective, not absolutes. Trust me if ALL electronics (CCR, dive computers, lights etc, etc) fail at once...........the world is coming to an end, or somepne just 'spiked' us with an EMP
 
SO I went home and I read up on Rebreathers. But when I was doing my research, I found SCR's and CCR's. Now, everything seems to be either ECCR's or MCCR's with absolutely no mention of SCR's except for a few questions about the Dragers.
There's plenty to read up on Dolphins, from online manuals and service manuals to them being featured quite dominantly in several books about rebreathers. That's probably largely due to Dräger being the first manufacturer to offer a "recreational" rebreather in large volume. The Dolphin's predecessor, the Atlantis, hit the market in 1995, two years before the Inspiration. At the time it was truly unique, at around $6500 costing less than half of what the CCRs of the time set you back, much easier to use and actually available to dive.

Now, My Local dive shop still sells the SCR ...
Not the Dolphin for much longer. Dräger has stopped production, Aqualung has stopped distributing Dräger products. So when the last units are off dealer's shelves that'll be it for new units.

There are several other SCRs in production in Europe, the Submatix 100 series in Germany (available as a cmf-SCR, mCCR and e/mCCR), the OMG Azimuth and UBS40 (cmf-SCRs) and the Voyager (also cmf-SCR and mCCR), the latter from Italy.

Also, there are several passive SCR available, the Halcyon RB80 in the US being the best known unit. The high-profile cave explorations by WKPP in the US and EKPP in Europe have resulted in quite some following of the basic design, and there are several manufacturers in Europe building low volume production models.

I am noticing most people go OC - SCR - CCR so I am thinking to myself. WHY? If a SCR will do Rec Depths for 4 hours with little to worry about managing a dilutant or Oxygen Partial pressure.. Why would someone who is doing Rec Diving move from a SCR to a CCR? If the Progression is to move to a CCR, why not just go straight there?
The duration for cmf-SCRs has already been discussed, pSCRs usually extend the duration by a factor of 8:1. CCRs can do considerably better than that, so for people using expensive He mixes they are a very viable (i.e. financially justifiable) option.

The OC-SCR-CCR progression has been heavily debated, I believe it derives more than anything else from the history of recreational rebreathers. Before Dräger, RBs were very few and in between, hard to come by and very, very expensive. Either build in low volume to start out with, or getting in very low volume from military into civilian hands.

The Inspiration changed much of that, and again did the (Classic) Kiss CCR. Many a Dräger diver switched to one of these models and finally got what they bargained for: silent diving and long duration.

These days many divers go straight from OC to CC, though, including myself. Why spend the time, money and effort on a semi-closed RB if it's a CCR you ultimately want to dive? Might as well spend it on a CCR and start getting proficient on it.

Also my Dive shop who does not sell CCR's, tells me that they are dangerous, twice as expensive to purchase and maintain, and are more complicated.
Diving has dangers. Rebreather diving a few more. No matter if they're SC or CC.
Think about it for a moment: As I said in my reply to the question "What's a rebreather", all rebreathers basically share the same parts. The difference is the gas addition and the gases used.

Mechanical vs electronically, pre-mixed vs self mixing.

Either way things can go south, parts can fail, mistakes be made. Plenty of incidents and accidents over the years on SCR, including fatalities. Any RB is dangerous as the diver using it.

Twice as expensive ... only if the electronics fail. They tend to cost several thousand dollars. Other than that you'll need to pay for 3 cells rather than 1 annually, and batteries. Service every once in a while, depending on model.

And Dräger prices are nothing to sneeze at, either! :wink:

As for gas, it depends on your location. Last US prices I paid was SoCal 2006, $10 for a tank of nitrox (up to 40%), $0.50/cf of O2, compressed air free. So $15 for 3ltr CCR tank, and that last a hell of a lot longer than a tank of nitrox, no matter if OC or cmf-SCR.

Sorb costs the same for either. Two first stages to service rather than one, some more O-rings to lube, that sort of thing.

Training costs more, but you'll be spending quite a bit more time under water.
Choose your instructor wisely and it'll be worth every dime. :wink:

... but more complicated seems to be true, even for the KISS.
I disagree, the Sport Kiss (pretty much targeting the same buyer as Dräger did) is as easy and more convenient to pre- and post dive. It's about as easy and considerably more comfortable to dive. In addition, spares are not an issue, customer service from Jetsam is excellent, and the quality of the rig is better to start out with.

Moreover, I can do any dive the Dolphin does without having to choose gases and orifices accordingly. Bailout is just a quarter turn of the BOV away, while the Dolphin's inflator integrated second stage leaves some to be desired.

In any way, if you think about it cmf-SCRs and mCCRs operate a lot alike.
Both add gas continually through either an orifice or an adjustable (needle) valve.
The SCR more than you need, dumping the difference. The CCR about as much as you need, with the remainder added manually. Both require checking the flow rate.

There are broad differences between rebreathers, their scrubbers, the electronics they use (and that includes SCRs as you need to know your pO2!). The before mentioned ExtendAir cartridge is by far the safest and most convenient scrubber out there. Much quicker to fill than the Dräger's. The PRISM's on the other hand will take quite a bit longer to fill.

Electronics, broad, broad range. From basic layout to features, to ease of use.

What is the general take, Why is the SCR the Proverbial "Red Headed Step Child" of the Rebreather world?
Probably because it's a design with lots of limits, just fairly well executed. A decade old product based on a much older design, outdated by current standards. Doesn't offer all that much over OC nitrox and quite a bit less than CC diving on the benefit side while having most of the RB hassles and risks.

As far as e/mCCR are concerned, rEvo II with Shearwater Pursuit and the Hammerhead CCR currently offer this configuration. Either setpoint controller/deco computer can be added to a mCCR, or one of the cmf/manual bypass valves (KISS, Hydrogom, Pelagian, Submatix etc) can be added to an eCCR.

Either way you're adding more stuff, more failure points, more maintenance, more expense to your rebreather. Personal choice if it's worth it.

I highly recommend looking at a couple of the available units out there, trying the ones you like, before buying a shelf warmer just because the shelf happens to be at your LDS. :wink:
 
If any electronics 'bite it' you have an issue, this is with any breather that has any electronics (cell read out, PO2 monitor etc, etc). A lot of people bundle up all electronic failure in one. There are of course redundancies and levels of failures. This is where the differences come in play. You can run a eCCR as a mCCR as long as you have PO2 read out (and there are redundancies). You can run both e- and mCCR as SCR, you don't necessarily need PO2 read out (provided you planned your dive correctly). You can run all breathers OC if you want/have to and with correct planning this can bring you home. And of course you bring enough bailout gas......

Electronic failures should be seen in perspective, not absolutes. Trust me if ALL electronics (CCR, dive computers, lights etc, etc) fail at once...........the world is coming to an end, or somepne just 'spiked' us with an EMP

As I've previously indicated, I dive an eccr (Dive Rite Optima). If I have an electronics failure, I absolutely have several options to remedy the situation (mccr, scr, etc.); however, I NEVER dive my rebreather without carrying enough external bailout to complete any decompression obligation from the deepest and longest point of the dive I have planned.

With that in mind, the one important factor that most people considering a rebreather need to keep in mind is the statement Tom Mount made, and I may be paraphrasing here, "For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." If you do what you are taught during training and don't get into the bad habit of taking short-cuts, the risk of diving a rebreather is drawn down to an extremely acceptable level!
 
This has been an interesting discussion. While I agree that the Drager is a bit of an antiquated RHSC in the RB world, the RB80 and clones are really completely different beasts. They aren't meant for everyday diving. The RB80 unit in particular is way more of an OC to SCR stepstone. And its definately not intended to be a gas mixer on your back. If you're paranoid about mixing gas behind your back and avoid it at all costs, the RB80 is "made for you". If you accept having a blender along then its a poor substitute for a mCCR or eCCR (depending on your sensibilities). The training progression to actually get "authorized" to buy a RB80 is insane too.
Carry on gents, learning alot here myself :)
 
I have both an LAR V and sport kiss. you can't get a much closer perfect rebreather than the LAR (series) but it has depth limits. I LOVE the Sport Kiss cause you can always fix it in the field, and it's only electronics is the 02 monitoring, it will grow with you. I'm on a submarine so my prejiduce against electroincs in the water is high. and I have served with people that have gotten killed by ECCR's
laytah
steve
 
and I have served with people that have gotten killed by ECCR's

That is a highly debatable and inflammitory statement. In the final analysis of any RB accident including those involving breakdown of the equipment the ultimate failure was that of the diver to recognize the fault and respond as per his training. More commonly a diver enters the water with a known fault due to complacency and decides to accept the risk, then when another fault shows up they are overwhelmed by the situation and unable to deal with something outside their level of training or experience. That is the reality of many if not most RB accidents. To say someone was killed by an eCCR is a total crock and I am certain you have spent enough time on RBW to know it.:shakehead:
 
That is a highly debatable and inflammitory statement. In the final analysis of any RB accident including those involving breakdown of the equipment the ultimate failure was that of the diver to recognize the fault and respond as per his training. More commonly a diver enters the water with a known fault due to complacency and decides to accept the risk, then when another fault shows up they are overwhelmed by the situation and unable to deal with something outside their level of training or experience. That is the reality of many if not most RB accidents. To say someone was killed by an eCCR is a total crock and I am certain you have spent enough time on RBW to know it.:shakehead:


how is this an inflammitory statement?
 
Well, glad we can discuss this like adults
 
guys lets keep things nice pls
 
In the final analysis of nearly every rebreather accident it is found that the fatalities are happening on eCCR's , nearly exclusively.

deaths on mCCR's=1
deaths on eCCR's= 150 ish

Despite increasing popularity of mCCR's, this ratio does not seem to be budging one bit.

But, I'd have to agree it's not that eCCR's kill, it's way more likely explained by the dramatic difference in monitoring interval that is absolutely required by an mCCR from day one in the swimming pool. throughout a dive an mCCR diver is doing little miny diluent flushes, O2 flushes, validating the sensors and getting to know the o2 injection requirements of each aspect of the dive profile. It's sounds sketchier to those who have not given it much time but I call it the school of predictable livable consequences vs the school of unpredictable deadly consequences. the monitoring interval required by an mCCR increases the likelihood that a malfunction or mistake will get caught before the gas mix goes deadly.

From day one, an eCCR diver is left guessing weather their monitoring interval is adequate... it's a crap shoot with little positive reinforcement.

After having dove both for a decent number of hours, there is no question in my mind why more people are making fatal mistakes on eCCR's.

I just wish that folks that went on about the dangers of rebreathers and their high risk track record would get their numbers straight and make a distinction between eCCR's and mCCR's when they are making such gross generalizations.

It looks to me so far like mCCR's are, as a system of diver and kit, leading to lower mortality than OC and I think credit should be given where credit is due.

g

That is a highly debatable and inflammitory statement. In the final analysis of any RB accident including those involving breakdown of the equipment the ultimate failure was that of the diver to recognize the fault and respond as per his training. More commonly a diver enters the water with a known fault due to complacency and decides to accept the risk, then when another fault shows up they are overwhelmed by the situation and unable to deal with something outside their level of training or experience. That is the reality of many if not most RB accidents. To say someone was killed by an eCCR is a total crock and I am certain you have spent enough time on RBW to know it.:shakehead:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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